Prog vs Classical

EugeneK wrote: Unfortunately classical music easily wins this contest, not because I like classical music more, but because its objectively, more sophisticated and intellectual. For example, take compositions for the piano of Rachmaninov or Chopin. These compositions are many times more technically proficient than the best Emerson or Wakeman keyboard songs. The number of instruments in a standard classical symphony is several times bigger than in the usual 4 musicians prog band, and the interweaving between these instruments is more complex. However prog has some advantages(its generally freer, and more innovative), yet the loss of such virtuosity skills as with Paganini on the violin, or Rachmaninov on the keyboard, makes me wonder. Aren't we now in the medieval age of music?

This is the exact thread I wanted to start but didn't want to ruffle any feathers.

I've listened to classical and jazz since around 1980. Only a few months ago did I discover the term progressive rock (prog); yet, I am finding that I've heard more of it than I ever realized. And I'm determined to go further in depth.

I tip my hat to all proggers who are creating or attempting to create worthwhile art. However, I have found that "classical" music - especially the music of the 19th and 20th century - offers a spiritual and emotional depth absent in prog. I'm speaking for myself and no one else.

Do prog bands incorporate elements of classical music? Of course, and by doing so, they acknowledge the beauty present in the musical achievements of western culture.

Is prog as objectively complex as classical music? As a trumpet player, I have practiced and performed all types of music, even jazz-rock, fusion, or whatever you'd like to call it. I've studied music theory for two years in college before changing my major from music to philosophy. Classical music is without a doubt more difficult to compose, perform, analyze, AND experience than prog in general.

I've played all types of popular music - rock, pop, R&B, even country,(believe it or not). Some of this music was challenging, but I have yet to find any piece of popular music as difficult as say a baroque piece written for trumpet, for instance, or the Hindemith Sonata for Trumpet.  There really isn't any comparison. This conclusion isn't based on a subjective whim but objective reality!

I would argue that it is in "classical" music that we find some of the most "progressive" composers. The 19th and 20th centuries stand out for me personally; have a listen to the compositions of Stravinsky, Holst, Bartok, Hindemith, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Ligeti, Cage, Ives, Roy Harris, etc.....just the tip of the iceberg.

Just one more step.....jazz obviously was the rock n roll of the day during the earlier part of the 20th century. It was based on the music of the people - not the elite class. Yet, jazz developed and became more complex as musicians began experimentation. In a matter of decades, we went from the spirituals, ragtimes, and the blues to swing, bop, post-bop, and even free jazz. As it developed and evolved - PROGRESSED?- the music alienated many listeners. How many people sit down to listen to the likes of Parker, Coltrane, or even today's Wynton Marsalis? Lord knows they've never heard of Ornette Coleman.

Point is that we find jazz going from popular music to what many consider as ART on the same level as classical music. (We had fusion going on there too...classical/jazz fusion, very interesting stuff.)

Question is.....does prog do the same? Has the prog movement brought rock out of the darkness of commercialism? Is it as complex as classical and jazz...obviously not. But is it art......that's the question I'm seeking to answer for myself.

I guess we have to arrive at a definition of what constitutes art in the first place.....and defining what true art is happens to be one hell of a task.

At any rate, classical music AND jazz win out every day over prog, but I still enjoy what I'm listening to.  ( Sorry so long)

Edited by bmorgan

Silly debate.

The major innovators of classical music MAY be better (objectively speaking), but most of it to me doesn't seem nearly as diverse and innovative as prog most of the time, and a lot of it just sounds the same to me (no tomato-throwing, please). With that said, I think prog's better because you can take it anywhere. Plus, I like it more, and you have to take that into account unless you're uber-pretentious.

EugeneK wrote: Unfortunately classical music easily wins this contest, not because I like classical music more, but because its objectively, more sophisticated and intellectual. For example, take compositions for the piano of Rachmaninov or Chopin. These compositions are many times more technically proficient than the best Emerson or Wakeman keyboard songs. The number of instruments in a standard classical symphony is several times bigger than in the usual 4 musicians prog band, and the interweaving between these instruments is more complex. However prog has some advantages(its generally freer, and more innovative), yet the loss of such virtuosity skills as with Paganini on the violin, or Rachmaninov on the keyboard, makes me wonder. Aren't we now in the medieval age of music?

I don't understand why its unfortunate that Classical wins easily or why it being more "intelectual" makes it superior! You're whole argument seems flawed somehow!

Come on, you fence sitters and PC Preachers, Prog is best, and you know it inside!

 

Both are complex manifestation of art. One more complex than the other, both styles are the best of the music genre (we have to include Jazz/fusion).

I just love how people have to make pointless comparisons.  When one makes a comparison between two things they like, or even two things they don't really like, favoring one can lead you away from the benefits of the other.  Music is the best, it is what it is.

Music is the best. You can't say that often enough.

Who cares what wins the contest-I like both.

Yet again it is a matter of taste................

EugeneK wrote: Unfortunately classical music easily wins this contest, not because I like classical music more, but because its objectively, more sophisticated and intellectual. For example, take compositions for the piano of Rachmaninov or Chopin. These compositions are many times more technically proficient than the best Emerson or Wakeman keyboard songs. The number of instruments in a standard classical symphony is several times bigger than in the usual 4 musicians prog band, and the interweaving between these instruments is more complex. However prog has some advantages(its generally freer, and more innovative), yet the loss of such virtuosity skills as with Paganini on the violin, or Rachmaninov on the keyboard, makes me wonder. Aren't we now in the medieval age of music?

I love to see such a great topic being started. It may be a year-long, talk, but for now in passing I can notice that you seem to be very much focused on stuff like technicality, virtuosity and intellectualism. If so, I don't know if these are items to be attained per se and I don't know either if this is what makes music be music. Such things, i guess, may or may not work for music. For instance, Liszt's "Transcendental studies" doesn't get much listening from me these days, unlike Brahms' concertos for piano and orchestra, reputedly hard-to-perform music, but obviously more appealing (to me, at least). I'm even more attracted by Moonlight or Waldstein Sonata by Ludwig van. Moreover, I don't think it's the virtuosity race prog necessarily plans to win, but rather the inventivity race...

Besides, whatever you called progressive-, or art- or whatever, it is essentially (...)-rock. Which loaned a lot from the vitality of the earlier "purer" rock bands and tried (successfully, IMHO) to take it further away, rendering it more sophisticated, more self-conscious etc. I love the top notch achievements of the prog bands (Yes, G. giant,, VdGG, J. Tull, Genesis) that knew to maintain such a fantastically inspired golden mean between the raw energy of rock and the complexity and seriousness and sensitivity and refinement of classical music. For me, this is the most felicitous and successful attempt in music.

Anyway, I love both genres for whatever is specific to them.