Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - You left them behind, surprised they're here.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedYou left them behind, surprised they're here.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
tamijo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2011 at 03:05
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

The more I learn about music the more I find that all the genres are poorly defined. Each genre crosses over with every other genre and the lines between them are fuzzy.
 
When everything is post modern and seperated a few of us may see that indeed nothing is.
The fact is that its not so much about the genres crossing over, its those ¤%&#&% artists, they keep sneaking out of the box we try to hold them in.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2011 at 00:42
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

The more I learn about music the more I find that all the genres are poorly defined. Each genre crosses over with every other genre and the lines between them are fuzzy. When I was younger though every one seemed so different and my mouth watered at the prospect of discovering some catigory... Now when I talk to anyone who is a fan of a sound I see nothing but diffensivness of their section of the record shop. But I think their favorite album could have been on this shelf instead.
 
When everything is post modern and seperated a few of us may see that indeed nothing is.
 
That kind of sums it up, doesn't it? I am sure a lot many of us have gone through this phase at some point. Unfortunately, people in that phase (and some never get out of it and remain steadfast genre fanatics) constitute the biggest target audience for art because that kind of fanatical passion gets food on the table for that artists.  I am extremely selective about what gigs/concerts I attend and hence the enemy of people who make or perform music for a living, ironically.
Back to Top
ghost_of_morphy View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2011 at 12:50
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Things were much clearer back when we used the term Art Rock.


I do believe art rock is a much better, more intelligible and more inclusive term for what all generally gets called progressive rock.  I don't see the need for drawing a line between Elton John circa Brick Road and Genesis. Yes, the latter's music is more sophisticated and complex, but I have yet to be convinced that by itself constitutes a completely different approach to music. Both are trying to do something interesting in a rock context, ultimately.
I agree completely.  Art Rock is such a stupid name though, whilst Progressive Rock sounds kinda cool.....  Unhappy
Back to Top
Proletariat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2011 at 12:24
The more I learn about music the more I find that all the genres are poorly defined. Each genre crosses over with every other genre and the lines between them are fuzzy. When I was younger though every one seemed so different and my mouth watered at the prospect of discovering some catigory... Now when I talk to anyone who is a fan of a sound I see nothing but diffensivness of their section of the record shop. But I think their favorite album could have been on this shelf instead.
 
When everything is post modern and seperated a few of us may see that indeed nothing is.
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2011 at 11:38
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Things were much clearer back when we used the term Art Rock.


I do believe art rock is a much better, more intelligible and more inclusive term for what all generally gets called progressive rock.  I don't see the need for drawing a line between Elton John circa Brick Road and Genesis. Yes, the latter's music is more sophisticated and complex, but I have yet to be convinced that by itself constitutes a completely different approach to music. Both are trying to do something interesting in a rock context, ultimately.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2011 at 10:54
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

When I discovered this site, I left behind extreme metal bands, and now that they are here, I returned to them !


lol, first part sort of applies to me. Not necessarily discovering the website by itself, but really getting into prog.  Found metal's concern with its ethos and 'culture' rather limiting and conservative thereafter.
Back to Top
ghost_of_morphy View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2011 at 10:44
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As much as I was weaned on Sabbath up to Technical Ecstasy, I  was very surprised to see them on PA as 'Prog Related' - hugely influential on heavy rock and metal yes, but the discernible Sabbath elements that can be found in some fully fledged prog are simply those same heavy rock and metal ingredients that Prog musicians and fans happen to like. You're married to your wife but you ain't related to her....(I hopeEmbarrassed)

true but at the time Sabbath was very much a progressive - or progressing - rock band; early metal itself was a form of progressive rock in the sense that it came out of the psych/blues movement and was indulging in longer, more complex ideas with arty imagery.  As well, I believe Prog Related doesn't always indicate influence on, but participation in, the progression of rock as art (but that's my interpretation of a vague category)
It is so easy to confuse progressive music as a genre with progressive music as an attitude.


To be fair I think David(Atavachron) concedes by implication that 'Prog' has never been a freestanding genre c/f Reggae, Blues, Metal, Rap, Techno, Jazz etc and that the only demarcation criteria we can use for artists on PA might just boil down to them having a demonstrably progressive attitude towards their music's development.

BTW I'm assuming by 'progressive music' you mean what we call 'Prog? (e.g. Ornette Coleman is clearly progressive music but it ain't Prog)
Things were much clearer back when we used the term Art Rock.
Back to Top
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2011 at 13:07
When I discovered this site, I left behind extreme metal bands, and now that they are here, I returned to them !
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2011 at 13:02
Originally posted by seb2112 seb2112 wrote:

I left 90% of the metal scene behind, and I'm always suprised to see how much of it is forced unto here

I am surprised about the amount of metal here on a prog site, but since I don't know it particularly well, it doesn't bother me.  The two examples in my opening post aren't artists who I don't think should be here.  I was into stuff at the time that I kept up with and are here and it's no surprise.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 13:32
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

That was probably your reality Dean bust you have to understand that we vector from different countries and the reality that I posted was the way it was here. My very first albums were Very Eavy, Very Umble and Black Sabbath both given to me for xmas when I was 11 years old or very close to thereabouts. We had a record shop in a place called Hillbrow called Hillbrow Records that specialised in "Underground" as I knew it and in that category I would find Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Gomorrah, Neu, Yes, ELP, Wishbone Ash etc etc.
I used to listen to Radio Nederlands on an old valve radio to their Underground Radio programme on Sunday nights and they played anything from Black Sabbath to Pink Floyd albums. There was a similar programme on radio Swazi that I used to love. I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.
 
South Africa was a very different place to many other countries and unless a person knew where to look a lot of music and other things were kind of unavailable. I remember asking for Rush on one occasion after the 2112 release at a record shop (not Hillbrow records) and being looked at like I was strange by the owner.
We were shown Partridge family movies in our school hall every Saturday morning in around 1970 as well as Voyage to the bottom of the sea and the Avengers and if we were caught holding a girls hand during those Saturday morning sessions there was a whole heap of trouble.
I understood that from your quoted post Dave, but you made a generalisation regarding categories based upon that viewpoint and took an en passant swipe at our categories in doing so, therefore my stating of a contrasting opinion was necessary - categorisation of music was just as complex then as it is now.
What?
Back to Top
harmonium.ro View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 12:09
At the rate you don't understand things, I think you should best stay away from the PA categories, they'd only give you headaches... Wink
Back to Top
seb2112 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: April 09 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 83
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:41
Originally posted by seb2112 seb2112 wrote:

I'm suprised to see so many straight up death metal bands categorized as prog. I can understand a band like Cynic, although I've completely outgrown their music and cannot bare to listen to them anymore, but a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse? If anything, the latest Behemoth record has a lot more to do with prog (as it closely resembles "accepted" prog metal acts Deathspell Omega and Ulcerate) than F.A.'s typical, uninteresting re-hash of somewhat technical (yet not progressive, the two are not intertwined) death metal. I get the same feeling when I see crappy black metal band early albums like Ancient and Abigor reviewed here because they eventually released a somewhat progressive record over a decade later. I left 90% of the metal scene behind, and I'm always suprised to see how much of it is forced unto here


Also want to add that although somebands might of been progressive WITHIN THE METAL GENRE, they have no place being here. Take the band Death. Yes, they moved away from the genre's typical, simplistic beginnings, but the albums they later released have no place on this website. Are we going to start adding every band that evolved it's genre under the guise that they "progressed" ? Are we going to add a bunch of punk bands because they were slightly less simplistic than their forefathers? Are we going to add a crap load of hip hop artists because they have better and more complex productions? Is starting a new sub-genre progressive in itself? I don't think so, and I really don't understand why we have so many Sludge/Drone bands in the Tech/Extreme Metal category.
Back to Top
seb2112 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: April 09 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 83
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:33
I'm suprised to see so many straight up death metal bands categorized as prog. I can understand a band like Cynic, although I've completely outgrown their music and cannot bare to listen to them anymore, but a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse? If anything, the latest Behemoth record has a lot more to do with prog (as it closely resembles "accepted" prog metal acts Deathspell Omega and Ulcerate) than F.A.'s typical, uninteresting re-hash of somewhat technical (yet not progressive, the two are not intertwined) death metal. I get the same feeling when I see crappy black metal band early albums like Ancient and Abigor reviewed here because they eventually released a somewhat progressive record over a decade later. I left 90% of the metal scene behind, and I'm always suprised to see how much of it is forced unto here
Back to Top
DavetheSlave View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:16
Originally posted by Formentera Lady Formentera Lady wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.

Wow! Cool
Was kinda cool - they were like South Africa's only contribution to international music later. Made us all want to be wannabe musicians.
Trevor fronted a band here called Rabbit and they had a really rabid local fanbase - screaming girls etc. Their stuff is really worth getting hold of for a listen.
Back to Top
Formentera Lady View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1840
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:03
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.

Wow! Cool
Back to Top
DavetheSlave View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 10:55
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I remember being almost ostracised for my music taste in school for enjoying Yes, Floyd, Sabbath, Heep etc, - the other kids had the Stones, Donny Osmond, David Cassidy, the Beatles and later Kiss emblazened on their school bags etc.
It was almost as if my preferences added a kind of mystique to me and my mates - lol.
It was so easy to categorise music back then - Underground, Pop, Jazz or Classical.
The pop lovers were a different breed to the Underground music lovers.
Later it became Rock, Metal, Punk, Disco, Jazz and Classical.
Now - Holy Moly - Progarchives alone has more categories than their were types of music back then.
 
Trying not to be rude here, you're too young to make such generalisations Dave, and even though I'm 3 years older, I'm also a year or two too young aswell. Any kid in the 70s with Osmonds and Cassidy on their school bag would never have listened to The Stones, Beatles or Kiss ... as Bowie says in All The Young Dudes; "My Brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones, we never got it off on that revolution stuff, what a drag, too many snags" - there was an age gap, and younger siblings never listened to the music of their older brothers and sisters - the listening range was two to three years for each type of artist regardless of whether they were Pop, Rock or Underground. Access to music was similarily restricted to very narrow time spans, unless it was extremely sucessful an album released in 1969 would have been deleted from the catalogues by 1972, which made true underground music extremely difficult to obtain - take something like Capability Brown or Clouds - if you didn't buy it within 6 months of it being released then you'd never have seen it in the record shops. Even ELO's (very Prog) 1971 debut was nigh on impossible to find by the time they hit the big time with A New World Record in 1976
 
Similarily among kids that were into Progressive Rock (and yes, in England in 1970-76 that's exactly what we called it, just because it took the rest of the world 6 to 30 years to catch-up it's not our fault) and Underground music there was a hireachy of cool that would never have put Yes, Floyd, Sabbath and Heep into the same bag either. Groups of kids that were into one type of Underground music would never countenance their music being compared to another type of Underground music, just as they would never dream of doing that today.
 
Time has blurred our memories - then was no different to now.
 
Your categoraisations from that time are a little vague and not exactly accurate - we had heavy rock, progressive rock, blues rock, progressive blues, psychedelic rock, acid rock, space rock, country rock, techno-rock (I remember Yes being called this and techno-flash at one point), head music, jazz-rock, glam rock, funk-rock, electronic, bubble-rock, stomp rock, pub-rock, etc., etc., etc.
That was probably your reality Dean bust you have to understand that we vector from different countries and the reality that I posted was the way it was here. My very first albums were Very Eavy, Very Umble and Black Sabbath both given to me for xmas when I was 11 years old or very close to thereabouts. We had a record shop in a place called Hillbrow called Hillbrow Records that specialised in "Underground" as I knew it and in that category I would find Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Gomorrah, Neu, Yes, ELP, Wishbone Ash etc etc.
I used to listen to Radio Nederlands on an old valve radio to their Underground Radio programme on Sunday nights and they played anything from Black Sabbath to Pink Floyd albums. There was a similar programme on radio Swazi that I used to love. I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.
 
South Africa was a very different place to many other countries and unless a person knew where to look a lot of music and other things were kind of unavailable. I remember asking for Rush on one occasion after the 2112 release at a record shop (not Hillbrow records) and being looked at like I was strange by the owner.
We were shown Partridge family movies in our school hall every Saturday morning in around 1970 as well as Voyage to the bottom of the sea and the Avengers and if we were caught holding a girls hand during those Saturday morning sessions there was a whole heap of trouble.


Edited by DavetheSlave - July 29 2011 at 11:06
Back to Top
akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 10:51
Iron Maiden.  I never concidered them anything other than a metal / rock band with a rather nifty looking monster thingy.  I never had any interest in them and I don't have any interest in them now.  So I will never find out why they are here. 
 
 
Help me I'm falling!
Back to Top
Formentera Lady View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1840
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 10:32
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

A couple come to mind for me: ELO and Kraftwerk.  I wasn't really big into either of these but I had Out Of The Blue and Autobahn.  When I became a big prog fan, I didn't keep up with either.   So it was years between me moving on and joining this site.  When I saw they were here I was surprised, but I still don't have any interest in getting back into them.  Of course if any fans want to convince me...
Same for me

Same with me!

ELO was introduced to me by my older brother (who also introduced me to Genesis), while  I heard Kraftwerk a lot from my class mates. Both happened in the late 70's. After a short period of listening I lost interest and moved on. Last year I discovered this site and am surprised to find both bands again.

Also I am surprised to find Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Metallica here, and not to find The Grateful Dead and Velvet Underground.
Back to Top
esky View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: March 12 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 643
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2011 at 09:58
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

A couple come to mind for me: ELO and Kraftwerk.  I wasn't really big into either of these but I had Out Of The Blue and Autobahn.  When I became a big prog fan, I didn't keep up with either.   So it was years between me moving on and joining this site.  When I saw they were here I was surprised, but I still don't have any interest in getting back into them.  Of course if any fans want to convince me...
You're insincere, and I don't believe you. And I have no desire to convince you.
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65603
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 21:00
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As much as I was weaned on Sabbath up to Technical Ecstasy, I  was very surprised to see them on PA as 'Prog Related' - hugely influential on heavy rock and metal yes, but the discernible Sabbath elements that can be found in some fully fledged prog are simply those same heavy rock and metal ingredients that Prog musicians and fans happen to like. You're married to your wife but you ain't related to her....(I hopeEmbarrassed)

true but at the time Sabbath was very much a progressive - or progressing - rock band; early metal itself was a form of progressive rock in the sense that it came out of the psych/blues movement and was indulging in longer, more complex ideas with arty imagery.  As well, I believe Prog Related doesn't always indicate influence on, but participation in, the progression of rock as art (but that's my interpretation of a vague category)
It is so easy to confuse progressive music as a genre with progressive music as an attitude.

To be fair I think David(Atavachron) concedes by implication that 'Prog' has never been a freestanding genre c/f Reggae, Blues, Metal, Rap, Techno, Jazz etc and that the only demarcation criteria we can use for artists on PA might just boil down to them having a demonstrably progressive attitude towards their music's development.

yes, but I was also alluding to the fact that, according to some in the music intelligentsia (which I don't always subscribe to), hard rock/metal was indeed an offshoot of Prog, and that  "...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath".  

That quote is from the notes in the Warhorse reissue, and represents a lost but fascinating perspective suggesting there is a deeper relation between Prog and Metal than generally assumed


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.238 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.