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Guldbamsen 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
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Points: 23104
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 Posted: July 06 2011 at 17:49 |
Just logged on after reading some Foucault - and this discussion is perhaps the final straw - that finally makes my head implode  . Went with the option that says both terms are overrated though(kind of a paradox as Harmonium pointed out), because I find they, far too often, lower the discussions down to a kinder-garden level.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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topographicbroadways
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 17:11 |
THIS IS OVERRATED RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE
I have been author of several of these threads. And have no difficulty at this point saying that they are f**king ridiculous
Edited by topographicbroadways - July 06 2011 at 17:11
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 16:58 |
 Paravion wrote:
TheGazzardian wrote:
Once again, the topic is won by ... DEAN!!!!
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Can one win a topic?
Anyway -
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? |
Yes.
Dean wrote:
Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion relation to itself... |
what 'it' and what 'itself'? - the anaphoric references are not clear to me. |
I can't think of another way of putting it - if only one album of music ever existed in the whole world and even the thought that another could ever exist was an impossible thought, then there would still be some people who would say that album was overrated and some people who would say it was underrated, therefore that album would be over or underrated relative to itself since no other album exists.
Paravion wrote:
Dean wrote:
...rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. |
So an expression that something is over/underrated has in actual PA language-use the same meaning-content as expressions covering that "something is liked (underrated)" and that "something is disliked" (overrated)? That is probably correct, but a rather unfortunate and inconsiderate use of language. |
I think it is more than that - for example it is possible to be ambivelant towards something and still say it is overrated, moreover it is possible to actually like something and still regard it as overrated. I don't see the terms over and underrated as being synonymous with dislke and like of something but more as a reflection of perceived popularity as a negative measure - and it is a value-measure, but one with out quanta or units - except of course, that is also not strictly accurate either since while it is possible that some people will dislike something because it is popular and thus regard it as overrated and there are others who just do not understand how something can be popular because they do not like it, there will still be those who like it and dislike the idea of it being popular. That last instance is possibly the one used here at PA more than any other - the rating is not of the album but of the number of people who like the album - the elitist appeal of liking something obscure wanes when it becomes popular while the content of what is being liked hasn't changed.
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What?
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 16:04 |
TheGazzardian wrote:
Once again, the topic is won by ... DEAN!!!! |
Can one win a topic?
Anyway -
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? |
Yes.
Dean wrote:
Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself... |
what 'it' and what 'itself'? - the anaphoric references are not clear to me.
Dean wrote:
...rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. |
So an expression that something is over/underrated has in actual PA language-use the same meaning-content as expressions covering that "something is liked (underrated)" and that "something is disliked" (overrated)? That is probably correct, but a rather unfortunate and inconsiderate use of language.
Peter wrote:
If you like or dislike somethihng, fine -- just say so. But don't disparage others' tastes when they differ from yours. Wine is popular, but I don't like wine. Does it follow that wine is "overrated" (and beer "underrated")? Obviously not. |
That's pretty much my thoughts.
Peter wrote:
Still, it is popular usage, not original or literal meaning, which ultimately drives and determines word meanings. (For example, consider the evolution of "gay" from happy, to homosexual, to dumb.) If most people continue to use the words to mean only "I don't/do like," then that is what they will eventually mean, and a literal analysis of the terms will not point to their current meaning. |
It is correct that meaning is use - and one can speculate that the popularity of the terms in question has arisen out of boredom of using the standard terms for (dis)liking - but the thing is, that it's questionable whether the terms over/underrated are ready to be deliberated from literal meaning when taking a larger group of language-users than the PA-community into consideration. The terms can't really escape the prefixes 'over' and 'under' (which viewed as prepositions in isolation aren't likely to undergo an alternation in meaning content). It seems that whoever uses the terms may just be expressing (dis)like, but such a poster inevitably gives the impression, by consequence of the use of words, that (s)he thinks that there are albums/bands that are in fact over/underrated in a (more or less) literal sense.
Edited by Paravion - July 06 2011 at 16:07
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 15:56 |
Nothing is rated Since that is the most prog answer. It's an answer that is another we love to overuse here....pretentious  Peter! Shouldn't be surprised the time I see you back is in a thread involving the English language 
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 13:00 |
As Dean indicates, if there is a widely accepted, objective criteria with which to judge the thing that is "rated," then the terms can rightly be used. For example, Saddam Hussein's vaunted Republican Guard were overrated, in light of the ease with which they were defeated. An athlete or political candidate might be overrated/underrated (literally, via odds makers or pollsters) if they then don't perform as expected, etc. But there is no, valid, objective criteria with which to judge the reception of art -- it's purely subjective. Different works/types of art appeal to different people, in differing amounts. You like hip hop, but I don't. There is no right or wrong -- we are both "right" and both "wrong."
Art needs an audience in order for it to "live" -- the song doesn't really exist, as such, until someone is listening to it. We HAVE to bring ourselves to our reception of art, and that reception is inescapably clouded by/filtered through our own unique, individual taste (which is shaped by many random factors). Ask a songwriter what his song "means" and he will often reply "you tell me," because lyrics (as with images, sounds, etc.) can have different associations for different people.  Still, it is popular usage, not original or literal meaning, which ultimately drives and determines word meanings. (For example, consider the evolution of "gay" from happy, to homosexual, to dumb.) If most people continue to use the words to mean only "I don't/do like," then that is what they will eventually mean, and a literal analysis of the terms will not point to their current meaning.
Edited by Peter - July 06 2011 at 13:20
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 12:49 |
I dislike the words, and how they are far too often arrogantly used here. Both basically equate to "they are all wrong." Thus, the terms are less an indicator of one's own taste, as they are a negative judgement upon the tastes of others. One effectively says "you are wrong to like this," the other "you are wrong not to like this." If you like or dislike something, fine -- just say so. But don't disparage others' tastes when they differ from yours. Wine is popular, but I don't like wine. Does it follow that wine is "overrated" (and beer "underrated")? Obviously not.
Edited by Peter - July 06 2011 at 17:33
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13769
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 12:45 |
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. In the larger connotation relevant progression can be disseminated through the intrinsic statistical differences that would render the question as being self-addressing in the wider scheme of things, albeit on a much reduced scale. At least, that's how I see it. |
Your Honour, I give way to my learned friend. There is nothing I could possibly add to this 
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8774
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 11:20 |
Dean wrote:
I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. In the larger connotation relevant progression can be disseminated through the intrinsic statistical differences that would render the question as being self-addressing in the wider scheme of things, albeit on a much reduced scale. At least, that's how I see it. |
Once again, the topic is won by ... DEAN!!!! 
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 10:53 |
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34,450 self opinionated members can't be wrong surely?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 10:11 |
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I think they are both about right in that if something is overrated or underrated then one must ask, in relation to what exactly? Of course in most cases it is simply in realtion to itself rather than to some normalised average or idealised mean so that the overrating ro underrating is a measure of perceived reception rather than any quantifiable maxim or derivative criteria or standard benchmark, ergo any observation that regards an assessment or rating as being above or below some notional norm is in reality a formative variable scoping. In the larger connotation relevant progression can be disseminated through the intrinsic statistical differences that would render the question as being self-addressing in the wider scheme of things, albeit on a much reduced scale. At least, that's how I see it.
Edited by Dean - July 06 2011 at 11:08
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What?
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 09:57 |
Voted for "overrated and underrated are overrated", while being perfectly aware of the paradox this implies. 
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: July 06 2011 at 09:53 |
Inspired by this sentence
lazland wrote:
Overrated & underrated are extraordinarily overrated words on this forum. |
written in one of those ridiculous over/underrated discussions.
This poll is mainly for fun, but not just for fun - hence in this section.
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Over/underrated?
