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Dean 
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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 Posted: June 17 2011 at 18:24 |
 The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). |
I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can? |
Yes, I bought it even as we were talking in that other thread (actually, my girlfriend bought it for me so I didn't have much time to think about your suggestion  ). I've compared: the denon out has a lot of noise and through the HD650 it sounds horrible. It's like the HD380 was masking the horrible sound or something. The HD650 reveals the debacle. The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). Through the v-can, the results are amazing. These headphones are the best I've ever had (well, obviously). So much more detail, balance, clarity. Amazing. Now I guess with an even better head-amp the results would be even more outstanding but I assume the law of diminishing returs would start to apply... For now until I get somehow wealthier, I'll stay with this setup. |
I suspect there is a terrible impedance miss-match on the Denon h/phone output that is causing this - the HD380s are probably better matched to the output and give a more representative sound in this case rather than masking the horrible sound - (it is actually very difficult to mask noise, it is better not to create it in the first place) - if you cannot hear this noise in the loud speakers then it isn't in the system but a product of the h/phone output not being able to drive the hi-z HD650 headphones adequately - as I said, without the circuit schematics I don't know how the h/phone socket is wired.
Can't say whether a better headphone amp would give any returns - if the V-Can gives "normal" listening levels with the volume control set somewhere between 1/4 and mid-way then any "improvement" you'll get from a more expensive amp, or one specifically designed for hi-z h/phones is purely subjective and in Oliver's domain, not mine. However if you need to wrack the volume up to 3/4 or max then certainly a "better" amp will give returns.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 17 2011 at 17:44 |
oliverstoned wrote:
The T wrote:
Thanks man. And  . You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean.
No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.
And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans... |
Here's what he said in the other thread:
"However, you do not need a dedicated headphone amp - any amplifier with a headphone jack will suffice, you can even use your Denon DM38 as a headphone amp in the interim (just plug the CD player into the AUX in phono sockets at the rear)."
I've better things to do, really.
Bye!
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 ... I had to check that " interim" translates into French, and it does - " intérim" " intérimaires" "période temporaire"
I also said:
| Quick answer: You do need a dedicated headphone amplifier to drive the HD650's from the Marantz CD5004 - the output of the Marantz is 18mW into 32 ohms - the HD650 are 300 ohms - basically you do not have enough voltage to drive the headphones and the maximum power you can feed into them from the Marantz is 1.9mW. [this means that the HD650's will be three times quieter than your HD380's when plugged into the Marantz] |
and Teo has said:
| The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). |
| No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 17 2011 at 17:25 |
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks. 
And I'm using digital out of the CD5004 because the analog I will be using to connect to the headphone amp. I could connect via analog and the connect the headphone amp to the pre-out in the actual receiver but I've been reading that pre-outs mess with the signal more because it has more interaction with the circuitry vs line-outs (like the one in the cd player) which come out as more "pure".
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I don't know enough about Marantz AV receivers to be of much help here - on a normal amp I'd avoid the pre-outs as they are (as the name implies) the output of the pre-amplifier so have all the inherent filtering and tone controls in the signal-path as well as the pre-amplifier itself - this means that the signal is larger than the line-outs by a factor of 10 (at least) - this would overload the V-Can I/P (or at least render the volume control practically unusable). On a normal amp I would go for the tape-outs instead as these are at typical line-out voltage levels, but I assume the AV receiver won't have a tape-in/tape-out pairing, so your solutions appears to be the only viable one.
/edit: ...actually the V-Cans have a line-out, so you could go from CD-Player line-out to V-Can line in, then V-Can line-out to Marantz AV Receiver CD line-in. If you have an extra pair of RCA interconnects lying around that's a simple and easy solution that does not require buying a TOSLINK or Digital co-ax cable.
Edited by Dean - June 17 2011 at 18:58
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 16:38 |
some damn fool somewhere wrote:
Of course I don't have the circuit schematic of the DM38 so I don't know how the headphone socket is wired, but in principle it should be able to drive the HD650 to "typical" listening levels without any detremental affect to the "sound", but only listening will tell for sure. |
I do hate it when people selective-quote me. 
Edited by Dean - June 17 2011 at 17:46
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 14:20 |
Bi-winning
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 13:18 |
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"Originally posted by oliverstoned
I've never adviced any headphone amp to drive the HD650, but to drive the HD25. Pluging the HD650 on the output of the Denon will give a poor result but you have not the choice anymore, since you ordered the 650's.
Dean's reply:
Poor is subjective and unless you've heard the Denon DM38 driving HD650 I can't see how you can make that statement.
The O/P of the Denon DM38 is quoted at 30W into 6 ohms, this equates to a driving voltage of 15.5VRMS. Typically a headphone O/P will have a 270R series resistor on each channel to reduce the voltage levels, which in this case would halve the drive voltage to 7.75VRMS, so when driving the HD650 the max O/P power will be 0.2W, or roughly half what the HD650 are rated at. In theory this should still produce sound presure levels around 100dB, which is more than enough.
Edited by oliverstoned - June 17 2011 at 13:18
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 13:12 |
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^That was in reference to my old HD380's. For the HD650's he agreed on an amp.
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 13:07 |
The T wrote:
Thanks man. And . You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean. No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels. And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans... |
Here's what he said in the other thread:
"However, you do not need a dedicated headphone amp - any amplifier with a headphone jack will suffice, you can even use your Denon DM38 as a headphone amp in the interim (just plug the CD player into the AUX in phono sockets at the rear)."
I've better things to do, really.
Bye!
Edited by oliverstoned - June 17 2011 at 13:09
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:18 |
Sean Trane wrote:
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks.
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Hey!!!
Next time, don't open a thread, just PM him, then!!!! 
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Your reply was all around Mr.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:17 |
stonebeard wrote:
Analog, obviously. I removed the passenger seat from my car and installed a Denon DP-A100 player with a Yamaha AS2000 stereo. I'm running Monster wire connections and have a surge protector rigged through 4 cigarette lighters in my car. Needless to say, I had to upgrade the car's battery, but that was only $350 more. I had to tear apart the whole passenger quarter of the car to add the proper acoustic treatment to keep the whole thing from vibrating, which Auralex did for only $3,000. Naturally my Saturn's sound system is sh*t, so I have a pair of Sony R10s that I wear at all times while driving.
Really, anything less and you might as well pack it in.
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This answer has so little to do with my original question  yet it's still somewhat interesting
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:16 |
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks.
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Hey!!!
Next time, don't open a thread, just PM him, then!!!!
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:09 |
Thanks man. And . You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean.
No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.
And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans...
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:05 |
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). |
I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can? |
Yes, I bought it even as we were talking in that other thread (actually, my girlfriend bought it for me so I didn't have much time to think about your suggestion ). I've compared: the denon out has a lot of noise and through the HD650 it sounds horrible. It's like the HD380 was masking the horrible sound or something. The HD650 reveals the debacle. The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). Through the v-can, the results are amazing. These headphones are the best I've ever had (well, obviously). So much more detail, balance, clarity. Amazing. Now I guess with an even better head-amp the results would be even more outstanding but I assume the law of diminishing returs would start to apply... For now until I get somehow wealthier, I'll stay with this setup. |
Let me remind you that in the other thread Dean categorically asserted
that you did not need any dedicated amp as it was another audiophile
fantasy. It proves (if needed) that its brilliant theories don't cope with facts. Well, i let Dean (and progfreak if he wants) all the space, i take some holidays from PA. Bye, and enjoy your headphones.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:50 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
All this talk about cd players ... pure nostalgia from my point of view.  |
When you have more than 2200 cds, and when you don't like collecting music in a hard drive, things are different.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:49 |
oliverstoned wrote:
So you bought your dedicated home amp? Did you compared it against the output of your integrated home amp? |
Not really an integrated amp. It's a surround receiver by Marantz so I can also run video through HDMI and all of that, but in my bedroom will act also as my main music amp. The headphones sound so much better through a dedicated headphone amp. I just can't imagine what a really expensive headphone amp could give with these beasts (the HD650s)
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:47 |
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). |
I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can? |
Yes, I bought it even as we were talking in that other thread (actually, my girlfriend bought it for me so I didn't have much time to think about your suggestion ). I've compared: the denon out has a lot of noise and through the HD650 it sounds horrible. It's like the HD380 was masking the horrible sound or something. The HD650 reveals the debacle. The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). Through the v-can, the results are amazing. These headphones are the best I've ever had (well, obviously). So much more detail, balance, clarity. Amazing. Now I guess with an even better head-amp the results would be even more outstanding but I assume the law of diminishing returs would start to apply... For now until I get somehow wealthier, I'll stay with this setup.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:43 |
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks.
And I'm using digital out of the CD5004 because the analog I will be using to connect to the headphone amp. I could connect via analog and the connect the headphone amp to the pre-out in the actual receiver but I've been reading that pre-outs mess with the signal more because it has more interaction with the circuitry vs line-outs (like the one in the cd player) which come out as more "pure".
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:47 |
Dean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Actually I wonder how many high-end hi-fi amps/receiver indeed have a in-built DAC... AFAIC, this could be blasphemous and prophane to most snobbish audiophiles , let alone uselessly drive the price upwards, because including something already available in your CD deck...  |
Digital receivers have in-built DACs to decode digital radio - so making the input available for external sources is "free" from the designer/manufacturer point of view and adds another tick-box to the spec sheet. |
Dooohh!!! 
Of course
How silly of me
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:45 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Actually I wonder how many high-end hi-fi amps/receiver indeed have a in-built DAC... AFAIC, this could be blasphemous and prophane to most snobbish audiophiles , let alone uselessly drive the price upwards, because including something already available in your CD deck... |
Digital receivers have in-built DACs to decode digital radio - so making the input available for external sources is "free" from the designer/manufacturer point of view and adds another tick-box to the spec sheet.
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What?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
|
Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:17 |
Dean wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Analog, obviously. I removed the passenger seat from my car and installed a Denon DP-A100 player with a Yamaha AS2000 stereo. I'm running Monster wire connections and have a surge protector rigged through 4 cigarette lighters in my car. Needless to say, I had to upgrade the car's battery, but that was only $350 more. I had to tear apart the whole passenger quarter of the car to add the proper acoustic treatment to keep the whole thing from vibrating, which Auralex did for only $3,000. Naturally my Saturn's sound system is sh*t, so I have a pair of Sony R10s that I wear at all times while driving.
Really, anything less and you might as well pack it in.
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Why use 4 cigarette lighters? It's just as easy & a lot neater to run 12 gauge wire (+ve and earth) directly from the battery (following the existing wiring loom through the bulkheads where necessary) and put your surge protection, power switch and reservoir caps in the cab close to your 110v inverter - of course you could use a portable Honda generator in the boot (trunk?) but that would require extra sound-proofing. Also, I hope you upgraded your alternator as well as the battery, otherwise you have to recharge the battery every night to keep it topped-up. Following Oliver's advice on vibration I also suggest filling your shock absorbers with concrete, and perhaps your tyres too. |
Gooooood one, Dean!!!!
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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The thing I meant is why go through the trouble of buying digital coax or optical link (unless already provided with the separate elements) if unnecessary... 
OK, I'll avoid returning to the RCA-connector/regular cable debate and specific uni-directional audiophile cablings, but that's still the optimal solution to me...
Actually I wonder how many high-end hi-fi amps/receiver indeed have a in-built DAC... AFAIC, this could be blasphemous and prophane to most snobbish audiophiles , let alone uselessly drive the price upwards, because including something already available in your CD deck...
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|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
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Digital coaxial vs optical
