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1791 Overture 
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 Posted: May 18 2011 at 13:02 |
 but not necessarily so with neo prog because it is a more simplified approach |
I guess that depends on what you mean by simplified - personally, I think a lot of neo-prog bands pay more attention to song structure and arrangement than a lot of other genres of prog. As much as I love Univers Zero, can anyone deny that some of their more rambling pieces have sections that are arbitrary and interchangeable, with no recourse to the piece as a whole? (When I say interchangeable, I mean in the way it's written, not in the quality!) In my opinion, neo-prog is far less prone to this problem.
| Arena, Pendragon, Pallas, Twelfth Night, in other words the bands responsible for the re-genesis pardon the pun) of prog in the 1980's (which is all neo is) |
I disagree - neo-prog has its own distinctive sound aside from just being the wave of new prog from the 80's. That's why newer bands sometimes get classified that way, and why Flower Kngs is symphonic rather than neo. The boundaries get fuzzy sometimes, but when I hear Sylvan or Frost*, the neo sound jumps out at me immediately, and I wouldn't confuse it with the Flower Kings / Wobbler / Glass Hammer type of revival, which is a whole other animal.
| As for somebody who raised an objection to calling Marillion a Genesis-imitator, I agree. I hear more Rush (Trewavas's grooves or the beat of He Knows You Know) and Pink Floyd (Rothery's solos, especially the moments he chooses to play lead) and also Supertramp, but Genesis is restricted to the partiality to arpeggios. Vocal wise, Fish draws from Hammill, Waters and Roger Chapman and even his lyrics are not a whole like Gabriel's in his Genesis days. As such, Marillion's delivery is hard hitting and direct where Genesis's is more subtle. |
Yeah, right on. I'd also say Marillion's approach to songwriting is more linear than Genesis - there's less of the traditional Western tendency toward harmony and "filling out the space." The only musical aspects that are introduced are those that directly go along with the story being told, usually centering around the vocals, so you're always following one continuous thread rather than putting pieces of a landscape together. I will say that Genesis wrote one song that really exemplifies this approach - The Musical Box - and that Marillion no doubt loved it, but that's not enough to cry clone for me.
Edited by 1791 Overture - May 18 2011 at 13:03
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lazland
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 12:11 |
We've done this one a few times, so i suppose i will be repeating myself a bit when I say that I love it, but that as a sub-genre, I think it has had its day. For example, i never will understand for the life of me why H era marillion (my favourite band) are classified as neo and The Flower kings are not. If ever there was a band who have massive nods to the past, it's them.
Anyway, if we accept the sub genre, it contains some of my favourites. The aforementioned marillion, especially latterly, have been responsible for some of the most groundbreaking and breathtaking music written. Arena, Pendragon, Pallas, Twelfth Night, in other words the bands responsible for the re-genesis pardon the pun) of prog in the 1980's (which is all neo is) are all marvellous. It is interesting that Pallas & Pendragon especially have been moving away from their neo & symphonic roots and into a heavier, almost heavy prog, direction in recent releases.
There is also some very good modern neo about. Gazpacho stand out for me, a great original band. Big Big train are simply exceptional, whilst some of the Polish stuff such as Satellite is extremely good.
So, in spite of the fact that I don't really regard it as a true sub genre any more, if you look at the bands we classify there, it is my favourite sub-genre.
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proginrev
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 11:51 |
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Neo-prog with Marillion, IQ, Pallas, Twelfth Night, Solstice, Haze etc were my personal introdcution to the prog genre, I therefore have more of a love of their music than the original artists. I do have a few Genesis albums, a Yes best of, some Floyd and a few other bits and pieces but my first love was the above scene. When I first heard Garden Party I was addicted. Hated it when alot of these bands changed into a more pop, less prog direction, but now after journeys through loads of types of music loves I have been reintroduced through a love of Radiohead, Muse, Gazpacho etc. Although I now enjoy the more modern H version of Marillion, I still listen to and enjoy the neo bands of the eighties.
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richardh
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 10:16 |
I take neo prog as being based more on songwriting with lyrics that are more emotional and about human things.It can incorporate ideas from symphonic prog which seems to confuse people and me at times. Its just music though when it comes down to it. I discovered IQ in the eighties when I heard them playing a session for the BBC on the radio and it was superb. I was convinced almost immediately. However after that they went in an AORish direction with Nomzamo and my initial enthusiasm waned until I stumbled across Subterannea years later. Marillion I always had a hard time with. Fish was far too theatrical (and therefore insincere in my eyes) and the band was just too stiff. Howeve I do really like Hogarths debut Seasons End which is as good as most of IQ's releases and there is no higher praise from me! I got a bit bored with them after that. Pendragon I had one album in the eighties (or was it the nineties) on cassette and it didn't do anything for me so I didn't explore further. Arena I do like though ,so I'm not off all Clive Nolans work! They have the most direct and emotional style of all the neo bands I have heard.Good stuff. Don't like Pallas for some reason although I havn't tried that hard to like them. Saw them live at a prog festival not that many years ago and their fans went nuts. I get the feeling they are like a 'mini Marillion' as it were. Other bands I like are sometimes counted as neo prog but more often not.Thinking especially Glass Hammer and Magenta so I'm not sure if I can discuss them on this thread. The most recent neo prog band I have discovered is Alta Via. I have written a positive review for the debut album Girt Dog.
Edited by richardh - May 18 2011 at 10:20
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 09:13 |
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Neutral. I used to dislike it when I was a prog-snob, but now that I'm starting to like and investigate 80s alternative music I think I'm starting to like some of the original neo-prog for that strong 80s vibe.
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rogerthat
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 09:07 |
1791 Overture wrote:
It doesn't necessarily follow that every release has to have good songwriting. I'm just saying that it's the thrust of neo-prog's appeal when it has appeal. It cannot fall back on promiscuous eclecticism as a distraction, and it does not fill its ranks with questionable improv, as even some of the best bands of the past were prone to do. |
And thereby the difference between your and my approach. I can forgive the few things that don't work for the sake of that mindblowing masterwork but I don't like consistency for the sake of it so much. Not to say I don't like it at all but consistency per se is not so important to me. The title track is the only track I really LOVE on Tarkus but that one I absolutely love. Whereas, on Tales from the Lush Attic, there are several songs that I quite enjoy but don't really get beyond that and it's important for me, if I want to really get into a band's discography, to get beyond that stage.
1791 Overture wrote:
I think, however, people are more likely to give RIO and Zeuhl credence as "sophisticated" genres of music even if they personally don't like it. Where I would argue that Zeuhl, some strands of RIO, and especially the Canterbury scene suffered from at least as much stagnation/imitation as neo-prog. It makes my eyebrows go up when cries of copying Marillion go up everywhere, but not for the numerous Canterbury bands that sprung up in the 70's that were essentially continuous rehashes of the founding groups. Not to say that the hypocrisy makes neo-prog's stagnation okay, but I don't think it has the problem any more than other categories of prog.
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This is a trickier issue. I do agree there are some stagnant releases within the Zeuhl umbrella as well as Canterbury too. If people are discriminating, oh well, there's nothing much you can do about it. I have said on different occasions before in this forum that I don't see what the RIO crowd's beef with neo prog essentially is, especially on the ground of being derivative, if they like that Eros album so much. It's rooted in well trodden territory and just having a more 80s drum sound doesn't disguise that. Anyway, I would personally call the bluff in any case, the genre by itself is not going to make me adopt a more partial attitude. The thing is, progheads worship complexity head over heels and even derivative Canterbury and Zeuhl releases will give you that but not necessarily so with neo prog because it is a more simplified approach (again, this is not to say there are no complex neo prog pieces at all, the title track of Script itself is very interesting in terms of structure). I am not saying that is necessarily justified or fair but that's just how it works. As for somebody who raised an objection to calling Marillion a Genesis-imitator, I agree. I hear more Rush (Trewavas's grooves or the beat of He Knows You Know) and Pink Floyd (Rothery's solos, especially the moments he chooses to play lead) and also Supertramp, but Genesis is restricted to the partiality to arpeggios. Vocal wise, Fish draws from Hammill, Waters and Roger Chapman and even his lyrics are not a whole like Gabriel's in his Genesis days. As such, Marillion's delivery is hard hitting and direct where Genesis's is more subtle.
Edited by rogerthat - May 18 2011 at 09:50
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King Manuel
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 06:53 |
I love Neo-Prog!
“I think people who enjoy Neo the most are those with a very mainstream taste in music generally”.
Well, ask my friends, family and colleagues, they would probably say I have the weirdest and wackiest taste in music of anybody they know. Not a bit mainstream at all! However, ask the prog community; they would probably associate me with the above quote.
I love the somewhat more “mainstream “prog artist and genres. My taste includes Neo-Prog, Classic/Symphonic Prog, and Retro Prog. Also Prog Metal I quite enjoy. And Zheul and RIO/Aavantgarde stuff, I cannot stand a bit.
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Man With Hat
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 03:00 |
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I like it, although admittedly not as much as I used to. Tastes change and all that. Having said that the bigger names of neo prog still sound fantastic to me and I can enjoy them much more than the lesser known stuff. (Of course I know more of the bigger name....but still....)
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1791 Overture
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Posted: May 18 2011 at 02:54 |
| I think people who enjoy Neo the most are those with a very mainstream taste in music generally. I can't get into Marillion, they seem too poppy and soft-rock-y to my ears, not what I'm looking for in "prog." I heard one IQ album and thought it was decent but nothing special. Right now, I'm listening to the first Pallas album and plan on reviewing it at some point. I enjoy this album much more than what I have heard of Marillion or IQ. I have a feeling that I would like the Neo of the '90s and 00s more than the 80s stuff. |
Hmm, a few things I would say:
First, just coming from my own experience, I was completely into prog before I began to appreciate neo-prog. I was more of a King Crimson / Magma / Henry Cow / Univers Zero / Genesis kind of guy - all the big names of the 70's. I still love all those bands just as much as I did, but I do think neo-prog has something that they don't and deserves to stand on their level.
Second, as for Marillion, I actually agree, except their first two releases are in fact very innovative and well-written. The accusation that they are Genesis clones is an extremely superficial analysis, IMO. Their sense of melody was completely different, as was their approach to songwriting and their arrangements. A great example is "The Web" - an extremely unique and inspiring composition. Misplaced Childhood is where I jump ship, though - then it gets too bland for me.
| I don't know, Pallas debut has only excellent songwriting? |
It doesn't necessarily follow that every release has to have good songwriting. I'm just saying that it's the thrust of neo-prog's appeal when it has appeal. It cannot fall back on promiscuous eclecticism as a distraction, and it does not fill its ranks with questionable improv, as even some of the best bands of the past were prone to do.
| And Zeuhl or RIO are not universally accepted at all. In fact, a lot of prog listeners don't like either or only very few bands. But because these are more underground or obscure, people who don't like it don't seem to talk about it or review it but neo prog gets reviewed by a lot of people and gets some flak. It's like how in metal, doom metal gets high ratings because only its core fanbase is interested in discussing it whereas power metal gets trashed by a large section of the metal audience. Universally liked prog would be the good ol' symph and also fusion. Some people don't even like Canterbury so even that is not a universally accepted genre of prog. |
I think, however, people are more likely to give RIO and Zeuhl credence as "sophisticated" genres of music even if they personally don't like it. Where I would argue that Zeuhl, some strands of RIO, and especially the Canterbury scene suffered from at least as much stagnation/imitation as neo-prog. It makes my eyebrows go up when cries of copying Marillion go up everywhere, but not for the numerous Canterbury bands that sprung up in the 70's that were essentially continuous rehashes of the founding groups. Not to say that the hypocrisy makes neo-prog's stagnation okay, but I don't think it has the problem any more than other categories of prog.
I may as well also give another positive examples of why I find neo-prog amazing - if you listen to the title track of IQ's Frequency, it's just perfect in so many ways. The atmosphere is grandiose without being bloated, the instruments are in perfect compliment to each other, Nichols' voice is very unique and weaves through some amazing melodies...the kind that are instantly memorable, rather than just "catchy," The guitar work is highly economical, with no excess noodling, and the song has no trouble keeping itself together. All together, it's just an intense, well-crafted experience. That in a way approaches my ideal of a good neo-prog song...all meat, no crap. I think IQ are some of the best songwriters around right now, and who represents the core of neo-prog more than they do?
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stonebeard
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 22:42 |
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All day 'errday.
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The Truth
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 22:36 |
Marillion is about all that I like. Many others really just tried to hard to do what had already been done and didn't improve on it.
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Harry Hood
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 22:15 |
I personally love Neo-Prog. Some of my favorite bands are Neo-Prog. I'd even go as far as to say I enjoy many of them more than their 70's counterparts.
I think a lot of people dislike Neo-Prog because they simply don't understand it or have enough of a proper context for it.
When the Neo-Prog scene started out, it was a bunch of bands in the same area playing a lot of the same venues and hanging out together. As a result a lot of those earlier albums sound kind of samey.
After about a decade or so most of the bands that stuck around grew and developed their own distinct style, as well as making significant development as songwriters. While Pallas have carried the torch for the "classic neo prog" sound, IQ, Pendragon, and Marillion are not the same bands people remember from the 80's. And they're honestly better for it.
As long as you keep an open mind and realize that there's way more to these artists than their "classic" albums, I think there's a lot to love in the neo-prog community.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 21:14 |
Lark the Starless wrote:
I like what I've heard so far ("Misplaced Childhood", "Script for a Jester's Tear", and "Tales from the Lush Attic").
There's far more for to listen to, however. There is this French neo-prog band (Evolutive) that "claims" to be neo-prog (their 2 albums are available for a free download, if anyone's interested) but they sound way too poppy to be in PA, IMO. I personally don't see how they got into PA.  |
I've got just about all of their stuff and I like it. Seems like they've been stuck in a bit of a rut lately. Neither is it good nor bad. Perhaps they need to go through more personnel changes like Yes or something.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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SaltyJon
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 21:02 |
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I haven't found any I particularly enjoy yet, but that's not to say it's not there.
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Lark the Starless
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 20:50 |
I like what I've heard so far ("Misplaced Childhood", "Script for a Jester's Tear", and "Tales from the Lush Attic").
There's far more for to listen to, however. There is this French neo-prog band (Evolutive) that "claims" to be neo-prog (their 2 albums are available for a free download, if anyone's interested) but they sound way too poppy to be in PA, IMO. I personally don't see how they got into PA. |
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 20:42 |
Alitare wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I'm not interested in it other than Marillion.
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There's other Neo-Prog than Marillion!? |
Just an admission that I don't know the genre outside of Marillion. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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rogerthat
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 20:10 |
1791 Overture wrote:
Personally, I think it's one of the best genres of popular music around because of its strict focus on excellent songwriting as its only hook. It uses prog elements in a smart and conservative way and devotes itself to those elements of prog that were developed uniquely as part of the genre, rather than borrowed from others. I also enjoy how it has become heavier recently, embracing a blend of grit and sophistication that prog metal attempted but in my opinion never really realized. The bass is generally highly melodic yet very forceful, which is one of my favorite aspects of rock music. The tendency toward a conceptual and professional atmosphere is the icing on the cake.
So, what do you guys think? I know there are quite a few reviewers here who like it, but I don't know if it's as universally accepted as "good" music as, say, Zeuhl or RIO, which I think is unfair. |
I don't know, Pallas debut has only excellent songwriting? That apart, in prog, I tend to look for sprawl with the exception of Gentle Giant's work but they were a singular band and don't have peers in what they did. For more 'crisp' music without much noodling and such, I'd rather listen to smart rock or pop music because I want long pieces to have ambition and some breathing space. With that said, I love Fish-Marillion but could never really get into the other neo prog outfits. Maybe I liked it more for Fish's passionate singing, without which that Celtic guitar formula would probably run dry for me sooner. And Zeuhl or RIO are not universally accepted at all. In fact, a lot of prog listeners don't like either or only very few bands. But because these are more underground or obscure, people who don't like it don't seem to talk about it or review it but neo prog gets reviewed by a lot of people and gets some flak. It's like how in metal, doom metal gets high ratings because only its core fanbase is interested in discussing it whereas power metal gets trashed by a large section of the metal audience. Universally liked prog would be the good ol' symph and also fusion. Some people don't even like Canterbury so even that is not a universally accepted genre of prog.
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Alitare
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 19:29 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I'm not interested in it other than Marillion.
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There's other Neo-Prog than Marillion!?
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 18:57 |
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I'm not interested in it other than Marillion.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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giselle
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Posted: May 17 2011 at 18:43 |
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I certainly don't hate it, but in general, it is a bit diluted, unoriginal, and uninspired (IMO).
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Your attitude towards Neo-prog?
