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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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 Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:44 |
 Negoba wrote:
Some of us (I won't mention anyone in particular) just choose to take 12 of the low-potency delivery methods of our drug of choice. Why waste all that water? |
It's called kidney stone prevention. 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:40 |
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I doubt many of us drink with the primary intention of becoming inebriated. I stopped that when I turned 19.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:37 |
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Some of us (I won't mention anyone in particular) just choose to take 12 of the low-potency delivery methods of our drug of choice. Why waste all that water?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:25 |
The T wrote:
Anyway, if drugs cease to be so controlled and illegal, don't people think the market (oh The Shield) will come up with ways to help/treat serious addicts? Or to produce less ultra-dangerous drugs? |
I've tried to bring up the largely ignored issue of the increase in potency of drugs caused by prohibition.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:15 |
The T wrote:
I've seen people needed to be hold down by 5 guys just because someone took their parking spot...  |
That does it! Parking spots must be illegal!
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:11 |
I've seen people needed to be hold down by 5 guys just because someone took their parking spot...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:08 |
Negoba wrote:
I've never seen someone require 5 guys to hold him down to stop him from bloodying everyone in sight after seeing a painting, or enjoying fine wine. I've seen it multiple times after PCP.
Just throwing out the other side of the argument. Not sure where I stand on this one, really. |
I've seen this too. I've been on the receiving end. I've seen it from other behavior like a guy's girlfriend cheating on him. I understand it has adverse effects. Clearly prohibition does not stop these from manifesting, but look at the cost of prohibition. For the record though I'll bet PCP feels a hell of a lot better then staring at a painting.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:03 |
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Anyway, if drugs cease to be so controlled and illegal, don't people think the market (oh The Shield) will come up with ways to help/treat serious addicts? Or to produce less ultra-dangerous drugs?
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:01 |
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I haven't seen the consequences of hard drug use Jay, I've FELT and CAUSED them. Long ago in my country I had an addiction issue, about 9 years ago. And from personal experience I can tell you that the drugs being legal would have helped things a lot, and not in the easy "oh now I can buy more" way. Many of the crimes associated with drug use occur because is illegal.
On the Fentanyl or so drug, if the drug is legal and not a taboo, more advertising and edication can be devoted to explain that it's pretty much "use and die" sh*t. Now if someone still goes and tries it, it's their damn fault. Period.
Edited by The T - January 21 2011 at 11:02
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:52 |
I've never seen someone require 5 guys to hold him down to stop him from bloodying everyone in sight after seeing a painting, or enjoying fine wine. I've seen it multiple times after PCP.
Just throwing out the other side of the argument. Not sure where I stand on this one, really.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:48 |
Epignosis wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
People like it. I don't have the moral superiority to prohibit someone other than my children from using PCP. That's essentially my basis for voting yes in this poll.
Just because something is probably a stupid idea doesn't mean it should be illegal.
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Yeah I don't understand why saying that people enjoy drugs is not valid. If entertainment comes from a painting, it's okay to mention that. It's okay to spend a hundred dollars on a fine bottle of wine. But it's not valid to say that someone enjoys PCP. Well people do. End of story.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:46 |
Negoba wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
We as a society should probably condemn all of these things. That does not mean we should use force to prevent them from occurring anywhere within our borders. Forget arguments about freedom, prohibitions don't work. They don't effectively remove goods from a marketplace. Especially as a bankrupt country, we can not afford to pour billions of dollars into a drug war which does nothing besides breed corruption of officials, disrespect for the law, create and fund violent gangs, encourage the production of more potent narcotics, and divert police resources away from true crimes which real, physical victims rather than abstract, nonsensical victims such as society and morality.
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I actually am quite conflicted on this one. Your arguments about central top-down control in this case have a lot of legitimacy in my mind.
However, the victims aren't abstract. At least around here (East Saint Louis area) we have some horrific case of some guy on meth killing a toddler, usually the child of whoever he's shacking up with for the moment, multiple times every year. Some drugs do predictably increase aggression and violence. In addition, there is an enormous amount of free care that is given out to overdoses and other complications of drug abuse.
I'm pretty certain that if you completely deregulate drugs, the experience is that there is an uptick in use but that it finds a new equilibrium point that is higher (but not nearly so high as many would have you believe). The predicted decrease in policing costs does occur, but there is increased medical costs. (And some less easy to quantify social costs in addition.)
I should try to find some hard data, but I recall reading this several times.
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There are laws against murder. Maybe more specifically, there are laws against using meth. Clearly the law against using meth didn't offer any deterrence. He can be persecuted due to murder. People commit murder for a variety of reasons. Just making them illegal fails to solve or even address the problem. The uptick will occur in usage. I don't believe it will in new users. The increased equilibrium will occur due to price more than anything else.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:45 |
I'm sure Pat's point would be simply criminalize the hurting of others. No pre-emptive regulation. And that's a very valid point in this case. Don't criminalize the PCP, just the violent crime that people tend to do while on it.
Just thinking this through though...what about Fentanyl? A drug that is so powerfully rewarding that addiction is virtually guaranteed, and the chance of overdose so high, that simply trying it is likely to mean you'll be dead in less than two years? Is that something to have available at a store for general sale?
I see the consequences of hard drug use every day. Occasionally I see deaths. I also see deaths from cigarettes all the time, but that's not banned.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:27 |
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Yes of course if they infringe in the rights of others. That's obvious.
People will find ways to do as they want with their lives no matter what you are ready to "allow". But if it's done with something illegal, they're much more likely to hurt others.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:24 |
Again, I'm not necessarily arguing for criminalization. Simply saying that that the car analogy is faulty. Skydiving is probably closer. Except on PCP or Meth you're more likely to hurt someone else than while skydiving. (Unless your aim is particularly bad)
There is the other point of - if we're going to allow people to destroy their lives, do we have to also pay for the mess they create on their way out?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:19 |
CPicard wrote:
I thought that the people who voted "yes" did it for the "simple pleasure" of trolling, but I fear it may not be the case.
I wasn't a fan of Slipknot, but I've been shocked to learn that their bassist died from an O.D. In 2010. Like if the deaths of Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Morrisson (and probably Brian Jones - maybe he drowned, I'm not sure), Sid Vicious, Darby Crash, Keith Moon, John Bonham and others weren't enough demonstrative about the perils of narcotics.
And if not dying of OD, you can "dream" of turning insane (Syd, Rory, where are you?) or having several diseases linked to these products.
I know that hard drugs don't enter the life of someone like thunder in a blue sky (again, last week, I saw some TV news showing children in the favelas sniffing glue - not to talk about Romanian orphans, and some French, Italian or German kids can suffer the same conditions of life)...
But when I hear about middle to upper-class French teenagers doing cocaine, their elder brothers remembering their trips on extasy or even middle-class, white-collar WASP Americain citizens enjoying crack... Do they really suffer from harsh social life conditions? Are they really mis- or uninformed about the threats of hard drugs?
And we still have the problems of alcoholism or the misuse of everyday medicine drugs...
I'm not even discussing ethics, moral values or whatever would be described as "philosophical/intellectual issues"... I'm just asking: "What for? What use? Why? Why so few serious?"
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Wow, I don't remember when I last read such a long serious post of you.  
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:05 |
^^^Though, in reference to Pat's post, I might see a point in making Jersey Shore illegal... 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:03 |
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
The user exercizes his freedom to get enjoyment for a few minutes... It's his benefit, the one HE chose for himself. Yes, it's stupid but nobody did the choosing. Even today most people don't do drugs. Do you think lifting the ban will actually create a nation of zombies? It already is, for legal drugs.
The poor mother who is on drugs will at least maybe still have the boy's father to help her, since this guy will not be in prison as he is today.
Things don't have to have a benefit to society for existing. People will find their benefits and will decide. Unless god finally shows his face, I don't like nobody else to do the deciding for me.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:00 |
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
People like it. I don't have the moral superiority to prohibit someone other than my children from using PCP. That's essentially my basis for voting yes in this poll.Just because something is probably a stupid idea doesn't mean it should be illegal.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:57 |
Negoba wrote:
Cars can be useful. They have a benefit / risk ration.
What is the benefit / risk ratio of PCP? |
Essentially zero. What's the benefit/risk ratio of skydiving?
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Should hard narcotics be legalized?
