Clouds

1967 was pretty much THE year of progressive - but not quite in the "Crimson King" sense.

The main essence of the 1-2-3 style (from what can be heard on "Above Their Heads", excuse me if I got the title slightly wrong) came from Jazz, of course - Buddy Guy and later Gene Krupa providing major drum cues for Harry Hughes - and organ led combos were not unusual at that time, e.g. Graham Bond's Organisation (check out their Live from Klook's Kleek album from 1965), not to mention Jimmy Smith, Wynder K Frogg et al.

Mixing Jazz and Classical idioms was something Jaques Loussier was famous for, and later, the Swingle Singers did some great things (and some appalling things) with that eclectic mix - to name but the most famous.

Blues Rock was pretty big prior to 1967, of course - the Yardbirds and Small Faces were producing some spectacular stuff which would go off into jazzy improvs. Don't forget that Pink Floyd had been producing some very experimental stuff before the release of Piper in 1967 - and there was the Fab 4 meeting Dylan and the Byrds, Newport Folk Festival of 1965, and the whole Electric Kool-Aid stuff going on in the US.

The concept of Progressive Jazz, which came to be the same as the "Progressive" in King Crimson, was kicked off by Stan Kenton in the early 1950s, if I recall correctly - and this was the concept of taking the music to its utmost limits, of almost destroying the concept of music within the music, if you like - much as "Moonchild" does on "In The Court".

Mixing and matching blues, classical and jazz was pretty much what a lot of people did in the mid 1960s, to cut the story short.

I don't think 1-2-3 were particularly ahead of the pack. There may have been some impetus to Keith Emerson, who knows - but his style was utterly different and fresher. And I am saying this as someone who is NOT very partial to ELP. Listen to the Nice's debut album, co-incidentally of 1967 - that album utterly destroys!

The real unsung pioneering in the 1960s, was in Electronica. Even Paul McCartney had a go at Electronica in 1967, but kept it under wraps until fairly recently when the internet made it more common knowledge. Electronica wasn't invented by Delia Derbyshire, but it begins with her by rights! The "Dr Who" theme of 1963 is a great example of what a stretched imagination can do to a piece of orchestral music.

There's no argument without conclusive evidence, though - as you say. The general conclusion has to fall where the evidence IS.

I've heard claims that these guys were the first real prog band. Of course some people won't buy that because they didn't have an album called "in the court of the Crimson King." 

Malraux wrote: Thanks for the interview. The origins of progressive rock are complex and don't revolve around a single album. It is the work that went on before any records were recorded, especially when the band were known as 1-2-3 in their pre Clouds days, that indicated that an iconoclastic musical form was emerging.   I believe that only one track, hastily recorded on a tape machine by an audience member even exists of 1-2-3 in action. They did not record and even when they later recorded as 'Clouds', they were best known as a live band.   I saw a few performances of the band in their 1-2-3 and later Clouds identities, and believe me that the audiences who were musically quite well informed in those days were split in their opinions. Some were amazed, while others puzzled. It was indeed a new and emerging form of music.   Of course, it is ridiculous to suggest that any one band 'invented' progressive rock music, and again I am not sure that this is what is being claimed. The music of 1-2-3 was unique in style at the time, but there were other Hammond players, like Mike Ratledge for example who were taking the sound of the instrument beyond the Jimmy Smith thing, albeit in a different direction. What 1-2-3 introduced was an organ fronted blend of musical styles which was just not being played anywhere else by anyone else.   What helped was the superb musicianship of this trio. Harry Hughes for example who has to be one of the most acomplished drummers in the genre and is one of the few drummers I have seen who can do the 'Buddy Rich' one hand drum roll.   My six cents worth.   M. This is still a very interesting comment on 1-2-3 - " a new and emerging form of music" and "an organ fronted blend of musical styles which was just not being played anywhere else by anyone else". What a shame the band didn't record at that time.

I researched this in some depth, with the aids of someone very close to Clouds, and draw the following conclusions (whether right or wrong - just adding to the discussion!);

1. There are certainly some particularly enthusiastic Clouds fans who post information that is unverifiable and somewhat tenuous - mostly, it seems, in the name of making the claim that Clouds were the first Prog act and everyone else got on their bandwagon.

2. There are also some quite vehement anti-Clouds people out there, a fact I find staggering. This would explain the enthusiasm of the above noted group.

3. 1-2-3 did have the claimed residencies at the Marquee, and latter day prog band members, including most of the big bands, were noted as being in the audience. A young David Bowie (Jones) wrote a glowing report of one of their gigs.

4. In 1967, the marquee installed its first recording studio - it's not impossible that 1-2-3 were among the first bands to use it. The applause on the recording is so clearly overdubbed, that I'm guessing it was all done in the studio.

5. It was common practise for one record company to get permission to use songs from another - even before the artists themselves had released them, and I understand, from my Clouds insider, that the band and Chris Blackwell (Island records) had connections with CBS and Simon and Garfunkel - so their recording of "America" could well date from before the release of Bookends - but there is no documented evidence of this.

6. None of this really matters - the 3 available Clouds albums are great, and showcase a band contemporary with the rise of Prog Rock, who had a unique style, and are well worth a listen. So are the early Nice albums:o)


Just my 2 cents

it's indisputable that 1-2-3 were the headlining act on Saturdays 11th 18th 25th March 1967. The so-called Marquee website (which is nothing to do with the Marquee club as such, just a fan's dedication site) does in fact show the headlining act as 1-2-3 on 18th and 25th (though it shows 11th as blank) as well as in 12th and 23rd May 1967, as well as others. If the Marquee fan-website has its own criteria for what constitutes a residency, that is another matter altogether, and hardly relevant. More significantly, there are existing Marquee programs which show the dates and the importance attached to 1-2-3's appearances.The program notes refer in several places to the band and the particular kind of music they are playing.  Among all the other arguments/discussions going on, the 1-2-3 headlining residency is a fact and the evidence is there to support that. 

I refer My Honorable Friend to the reply I gave some moments ago. 

Your comment may well be true about Prog archives itself, every band has fans who do that stuff! But there is a lot of information out there if you look for it that isn't fan-based at all. As for Wikipedia, fans can edit all they like, but Wiki editors are fierce on anything that doesn't stand up, so I don't buy that one either. Of course there is a lot out there that sounds (and sometimes is) anecdotal, but that's also true of any band's version of its history. You also miss the point about the recording. It's not important if it's the Marquee or not, for it's indisputable that it was way ahead of Yes and anyone else, as Jon confirms. And why would he say the band was "very important" if it wasn't? When the band changed name (and style/approach) to Clouds, the 1-2-3 material wasn't used other than a drum solo number - it doesn't change the timeframe 'considerably' in any case, late 67 early 68 at most. You're also wrong about the Marquee residency, it's well documented, and shown in the Marquee programs of March and May 1967 that the band went straight into a headlining residency without any support spot - unheard of prior to that. You should also read the Marquee program notes on the kind of music 1-2-3 was playing at the time. 

So Jon Anderson has finally gone public and admitted the influence of Clouds and how important they were to Yes, including the idea for recording 'America'. That's one in the eye for some of the Prog audience who seem to find it hard to accept that their heroes ideas weren't as original as they thought. But what's wrong with having an influence anyway? It doesn't take away the total achievement, only a degree of the originality - everyone has to start somewhere, I doubt that 1-2-3 made it all up by themselves. And anyway, the rest of us accepted this stuff long ago.

I thought we weren't supposed to address spammers?    

Still made me chuckle though....