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maani View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2005 at 00:21

Nacho:

Why "Jesus' words only?"  After all, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."  2 Tim. 3:16.

In this regard, it is true that Jesus did not say anything specifically about homosexuality.  But that is ultimately a moot point; there are dozens of things Jesus never said anything about or did, yet are clear and obvious within the "Christian construct," and living a "Christ-like" life.

There are two main Scriptural passages that address homosexuality.  The first, and harshest, is at Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination."  Note that the word "abomination" is even stronger than the word "sin," and denoted something that was truly "hateful" to God.

The second, and more detailed, one is at Romans 1:26-27: "For even the women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature [i.e., God].  Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing that which is shameful [read "sinful"], and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."  (Bracketed comments are mine)

Thus, the Scripture makes it clear that the homosexual lifestyle is inherently "sinful."

Still, having said that, I reiterate that although a Christian may feel obligated to inform a homosexual family member or friend of this, it should never be done in a judgmental or condemning fashion, and that, once informed, the homosexual person should be treated with the same love, peace, humility, forgiveness, etc. that should be accorded anyone else if one is to truly live a "Christ-like" life.

Frenchie:

You are among way too many people for whom the "Church" (capital C) has been its own worst enemy.  This is why so many Christians have rejected - and continue to reject, in growing numbers - organized, mainstream, hierarchical "religion" in favor of "home churches" and other alternative churches.  "Christianity" lost its way when it become "politicized," and fell away from the most basic precepts of Jesus' life and ministry.  It is often said that "Religion is about laws, rules and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God and Christ."  While there is a place for "religion," faith is the more important of the two.  The "Church" - and many supposedly faith-based political groups (including the so-called "Christian Right" here in the U.S.) - focus way too heavily on the former at the expense of the latter.  Indeed, not only are they focused on "laws and behavior," but they also take Scripture out of context to support unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views.

You are 100% correct in believing that "religion should never be enforced" (though I'm pretty sure you mean "forced").  After all, faith cannot be "given," much less forced upon someone.  It must come from inside.  Even "religion" - the laws and behavior that underlie a "Christ-like" life - cannot, and should not, be "forced upon" anyone.  This entire notion is antithetical to what Jesus did and taught.  He Himself would preach in villages, on mountains, from boats offshore, anywhere he could.  But He never "demanded" that anyone listen; people were free to listen or not - and, if they did listen, they were free to accept or reject what He offered.  He never once judged or condemned anyone for choosing not to listen or to reject His teachings.  And when He sent the apostles and disciples out to preach the Gospel, He told them to go to each house and offer the Gospel.  But He also told them that if the people did not want to hear it, the apostle or disciple was to "shake the dust from their feet" and move on to the next house.  That is, there was to be no "coercion"; the Gospel was to be preached lovingly, humbly and patiently, with no judgment or condemnation if someone chose not to hear it, or to reject it.  The entire idea of "ram-it-down-your-throat" proselytizing is also anathema to Jesus' words and actions.

Any Christian who would "attack" you for your lack of belief does not understand who Jesus was or what He was about, and thus does not understand their own faith.  "Attack" infers judgment or condemnation, and the Scripture clearly admonishes Christians not to engage in either; that any and all "judgment" is reserved exclusively to Jesus "at the end."

I am truly sorry that you were forced to undergo such harsh and un-Christian treatment, and that it led to you completely rejecting faith.  If it is of any help, you need never be "afraid" of not believing.  After all, "free will" is ultimately the freedom to accept or reject God.  Thus, you are simply exercising your free will in rejecting Him.  I can, of course, only hope that perhaps one day you will find some sort of inner faith - however that manifests itself - and feel comfortable expressing that faith without fear of condemnation.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 19:41
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:



it is incumbent upon Christians to treat homosexuals with the same love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, selflessness, charity, service and truth that they treat any other person, whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, atheist - or heterosexual.  To do otherwise is simply not Christian.

 



Maani, help me out... this isn't to do with homosexuality (at least i hope not) but i was wondering if you could help me. When i was growing up i went to a church of england primary school. I used to believe in God because i was AFRAID not to, that school messed me up, i felt forced to go to church (we would get told off if we didn't). As a child i did not believe in God or any of the bible or that christianity works but i was too afraid of being punished. My teachers used to say things like "you will go to hell" or "you will be killed" or "you will be put in jail" if i didn't believe in god. They taught this to many of the children at school since we were naive we were all scared that we had to be believe in god or terrible things would happen to us.

I finally had enough and turned my back on christianity (all because of my primary school enforcing it on me). I recently told a christian about this and they swore at me and said i was evil and that i am attacking christianity. I don't see how, just because i don't believe in it. I also do not believe that religion should be enforced. I was never baptised and therefore the teachers should not have made me feel as if i had to believe in god as a youth.

Maani, you say: it is incumbent upon Christians to treat homosexuals with the same love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, selflessness, charity, service and truth that they treat any other person, whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, atheist - or heterosexual.  To do otherwise is simply not Christian.

surely my teachers and the christian that verbally attacked me are not following the above mentioned guidelines. I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on all of this. Hope you reply!

The Worthless Recluse
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 19:40
Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Ah...I see it now. Yuk....chicks are better.

You sure?

Hey,,,where did you ge tthat pic of Tuxxy's girlfriend?

Now thats what I call a Gold Medal Girl.

 

That's not my girlfriend.

 

 

 

 

 

mine doesn't have a tattoo.

What tattoo????

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 19:31
Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Ah...I see it now. Yuk....chicks are better.

You sure?

Hey,,,where did you ge tthat pic of Tuxxy's girlfriend?

Now thats what I call a Gold Medal Girl.

 

That's not my girlfriend.

 

 

 

 

 

mine doesn't have a tattoo.

 

 

edit: I just found out she had it removed, a while after I met her



Edited by tuxon
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 18:02
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Ah...I see it now. Yuk....chicks are better.

You sure?

Hey,,,where did you ge tthat pic of Tuxxy's girlfriend?

Now thats what I call a Gold Medal Girl.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:59

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Ah...I see it now. Yuk....chicks are better.

You sure?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:56
Ah...I see it now. Yuk....chicks are better.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:46

That's because you have a crap PC!

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:44
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

What? The Rock said he was gayer?

Gayer than who????

We all new he was gay,unfortunately Liz Taylor didnt!

Anyway here's a picture that will send you back into the closet.....

Ha, ha...can't see it dork boy.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:41

What? The Rock said he was gayer?

Gayer than who????

We all new he was gay,unfortunately Liz Taylor didnt!

Anyway here's a picture that will send you back into the closet.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:37
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crimeWink

This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day...LOL

Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!!

Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet.Embarrassed

That pun ruled...you're just jealous that a Brit didn't come up with it.

Seriously, though, Bald John and Bald Fred post so often on this site, one wonders where they find time to perform in a band and run a restaurant as well. Also, one gets a feeling that they're just here to shamelessly promote the lp and then when they find out no-one gives a crap, they'll depart our fair forum for good.

 

 

You are just jealous that you dont get all the homophobic attention any more!

Nah...I'm straight now. Maani cured me. Praise the Lord. Girls Rules. Lesbians turn me on. I want to see some coochie right now....Yeah! WOO HOO!

Bah,I dont believe any of it! You are just a little uptight!

Why dont you go round Maani's and get stoned......

That is how the cure took place...Maani is stoning me and then I heard one of the rocks speak.."Gdub, My name is Gaia and I forgive you for being gay...go forth and sin no more".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:21
Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crimeWink

This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day...LOL

Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!!

Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet.Embarrassed

That pun ruled...you're just jealous that a Brit didn't come up with it.

Seriously, though, Bald John and Bald Fred post so often on this site, one wonders where they find time to perform in a band and run a restaurant as well. Also, one gets a feeling that they're just here to shamelessly promote the lp and then when they find out no-one gives a crap, they'll depart our fair forum for good.

 

You are just jealous that you dont get all the homophobic attention any more!

Nah...I'm straight now. Maani cured me. Praise the Lord. Girls Rules. Lesbians turn me on. I want to see some coochie right now....Yeah! WOO HOO!

Bah,I dont believe any of it! You are just a little uptight!

Why dont you go round Maani's and get stoned......

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:18
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crimeWink

This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day...LOL

Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!!

Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet.Embarrassed

That pun ruled...you're just jealous that a Brit didn't come up with it.

Seriously, though, Bald John and Bald Fred post so often on this site, one wonders where they find time to perform in a band and run a restaurant as well. Also, one gets a feeling that they're just here to shamelessly promote the lp and then when they find out no-one gives a crap, they'll depart our fair forum for good.

 

You are just jealous that you dont get all the homophobic attention any more!

Nah...I'm straight now. Maani cured me. Praise the Lord. Girls Rules. Lesbians turn me on. I want to see some coochie right now....Yeah! WOO HOO!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:11
Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crimeWink

This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day...LOL

Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!!

Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet.Embarrassed

That pun ruled...you're just jealous that a Brit didn't come up with it.

Seriously, though, Bald John and Bald Fred post so often on this site, one wonders where they find time to perform in a band and run a restaurant as well. Also, one gets a feeling that they're just here to shamelessly promote the lp and then when they find out no-one gives a crap, they'll depart our fair forum for good.

You are just jealous that you dont get all the homophobic attention any more!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:07
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crimeWink

This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day...LOL

Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!!

Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet.Embarrassed

That pun ruled...you're just jealous that a Brit didn't come up with it.

Seriously, though, Bald John and Bald Fred post so often on this site, one wonders where they find time to perform in a band and run a restaurant as well. Also, one gets a feeling that they're just here to shamelessly promote the lp and then when they find out no-one gives a crap, they'll depart our fair forum for good.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 16:50

Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crimeWink

This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day...LOL

Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!!

Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet.Embarrassed

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 16:39
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Winterfamily Winterfamily wrote:




BTW, BJean and BFriede, what is your creed about?  Do you have scriptures?


We worship Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth. She serves as a symbol of the interconnectedness of things. For information about that look up the Gaia theory of James Lovelock and Lynn Margulis.

There is not really a scripture, but if you are interested I can tell you about some of the rituals and the contents of the religion. I'd prefer to do so in private message though.

Strange that 2 lesbos worship guysa!....are you sure you're dykes?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 15:36
To answer your last question nacho, it is a movement seen in the 'prophetic movement' and in many traditional churches. The lust for money corrupts church leaders, and as such they will never condemn wealth. I personally condemn wealth of material need without sharing, as Yeshua promoted a sharing kind of existence. Homosexuality is really an easy target, not yet accepted by society anyway, while wealth is. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 14:33

Yep, I was expecting exactly that from you Maani. It's obvious the difference is repenting or not. However, maybe the main point in your explanation is that sentence about "The homosexual person in Scenario B is committing a sin by engaging in homosexuality". Can you please enlighten us as to from which part of the scriptures do you take that conclusion? I'm not an expert in that, but I'm sure you'll find plenty of quotes there (please, Jesus words only).

Also, I'd like to know your views about which can be the reason why most christian churches have forgotten that clear statement about the camel and the needle, that if I recall well is reported by three of the four evangelists. Why do churches state so clearly that homosexuals will never enter heaven but they don't condemn wealth?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2005 at 14:27
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Just become atheists: the most sensible thing to do. no god to tell you what to do and how to do it. Seriously, this is the 21st Century, you'd think humans would be grown up enough to stop believing in a super-natural being counting your screw-ups to see if you are going to hell or not!

Baldfriede,

Starting a religion is likely to be sect and is game for you, since you are your own priestess but this stuff can get to your head quick and drive you to insanity.

14 women...... (vestry virgins I hope.....) Do you need a god? I could submit a resumé, if asked gently enough..... I would choose a prog anthem(Ritual - nous sommes du soleil), a prog prayer(Sheep) and have a prog prosternation position (preferably in very minimalistic clothing).

Just kidding of course but don't mess with that stuff because many are losing it quickly.

I had to look up "prosternation" in a dictionary and came up with

prosternation

\Pros`ter*na"tion\, n. [F. See Prostration.] Dejection; depression. [Obs.] --Wiseman.

Are you sure about your choice of words?



BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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