Hogarth-era Marillion Suggestions

Iván, you're completely missing Eric's point! This is the same exact thing that happened in the last Dream Theater topic...

Anybody can drop in here and say "don't listen to Hogarth-era Marillion". I can think of at least 10 people who have that opinion on this site. But that doesn't help the original poster. The original post said "Any suggestions on what to start out with and what to expect for the albums? ". Your reply didn't answer that question at all.

If you don't like Hogarth-era Marillion (which is perfectly fine), you could've said something helpful like "A lot of people like Brave, but I personally find it very boring". That comment takes a negative standpoint, but still provides insightful information. Telling him to avoid all of Marillion's music since 1987 doesn't answer his question.

It's a simple concept that you're failing to understand.

Progfan1958 wrote: Ivan, I guess being a lawyer you find it fun to play with words in this way. Perhaps GOOD and  EVIL are cut and dried for you ? However  LOVE and HATE are not poles, they are limits and as such not two sides of the same coin, there are an infinite amount of quanta in between .  Should I troll through your reviews to see where you contradict or express yourself  in an seemingly inconsistent manner ?

 

Progfan1958 wrote:         I find it upsetting when people use words like "hate" to describe art ( that's what this is, after all ), because so much of it is subjective, and really depends upon where you stand and where you've come from. My wife is a fan of the Carpenters ( certainly ultimate anti-prog music if there was one...unless you've heard a muzak version of Watcher Of The Skies whilst riding an elevator....the horror ! ) but I would not say I 'hate" them. They are just not my preference. Then again, I love Dylan, Waits, and Neil Young, and so does she as well.... not prog, but darn real artists.

^ Indeed. I'm afraid that I've been remiss in reading all of the comments in this thread, but if the topic-starter likes CLuctching at Straws, then that is a good suggestion (I've never heard the whole album and didn't like what I did hear of it).  Marillion was never adverse to AOR/ pop music.

I think that everyone should feel free to express their feelings about music (provided it's expressed in a reasonable manner). How boring this site would be if there were only positive comments, and I thought Ivan's comment appropriate for the topic based on the initial post. I, too, generally would rather negative appraisals/ comments than a lack of interest, and often solicit opinions good and bad about music.  If I'm asking for suggestions, I'm happy to hear a wide range of opinion. I don't like it when such negative people are not open to further discussion, however, and are not willing to back up assertions, or it is clear that those people know very little about the music they are being disparaging about. It's generally best when the negative comments are framed in an intelligent way, or at least the perspective is presented in a thoughtful manner.

And Eric, feel free to express your dissatisfaction with any music I mention in the fora (or any in my signature) or any of my Suggestions -- I'd appreciate your negative interest over no interest from you at all.  I'd love to hear your opinion of, say, Magma's music (since you used it as an example), provided it's not post and run but are open to discussion. However, maybe others would feel differently.  I respect you and would honestly be very pleased to discuss such music with you (we share some likes in common... e. Genesis Cinema Show which I also think excellent).  There have been many negative threads about Magma, like Marillion it may be a love or hate band to quite an extent, but for a well-rounded Progger, I think both bands are essential listening.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.  I have a friend who likes Marillion so I have heard some albums.  Personally, I would not recommend Season's End as it's far too unsatisfyingly poppy, AOR, and arena rockish for my tastes. It's at least as bad as Gentle Giant's final three in that respect, I feel (and I really dislike GG's final three). I'm actually surprised that an album with tracks such as Hooks in You and The Univited Guest has such high ratings at a Prog site (okay, maybe not down there with Magma's "Ooh, Ooh Baby", but pretty close).  I'm not against pop music, hardly.  In fact, I love  a lot of pop meets progressive music and pop music, and have suggested music here that I love that has been rated very lowly by others due to the pop quotient.  I do think Brave and Marbles are good for what they are and would recommend them.

Even stuff like "Hooks in You" and "The Uninvited Guest"  has its humorous charms and I enjoy, as I see them,  progressive rock-incongruous songs be they from my favourite bands/artists or not since I like to think I have a sense of humour/ enjoy the absurd even when it comes to my favourite acts. And they are listenable to me.  TO be honest, I find Hooks in You very catchy and it's a bit of a guilty pleasure along with a track such as Magma's "Ooh, Ooh Baby (Cry From the Dark).

I think it's better for you to start with Seasons End, as most of the material was written just after Clutching at Straws while Fish was still around. H performance is confident and strong. If you like what you hear, go with Brave and Marbles (both masterpiece). This Strange Engine and Afraid of Sunlight are also recommended.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: E-Dub wrote: Ivan, DO NOT twist my words around. That really steams my ass. I never said that this was a Praise Hogarth thread. I'm merely defending the person's right to at least give it a chance. Pure and simple. I've heard people say, "You know, I don't personally like them, but I have found at that  a lot of people like ....."    No Eric, you protest because you are a Hogarth Marillion fan, lets speak plain and simple:   E wrote:   Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen.   In other words, it pisses you because you are a Marilion Hogarth's fan.   E-Dub wrote: BaldFriede wrote: from the way the starter of the thread put it it was not clear at all that he had already heard Marillion of the Hogarth era and liked it. Maybe so, but who cares? That's such a small little nugget in the grand scheme of things. I clearly got the intentions of the author. And he was willing to try.   I CARE, that if somebody asks, I reply with my personal and honest opinion, you guessed what he thought, I don't, I saw it as a question of a person who never heard H Marillion and in my opinion he should avoid them.   E-Dub wrote: OK, suppose somebody who was only familiar with the more hit oriented Genesis needed suggestions on where to begin with the Gabriel era. Somebody (not me because I love Gabriel era Genesis) comes in amongst genuine suggestions and goes, "I find the Gabriel era of Genesis to be too derivative and lacking of any quality whatsoever. Don't bother with it and stay with the Collins era." According to what I've read, that would be acceptable?   It happens all the time, It's almost a national sport to attack Dream Theater and ELP and it's OK, their fans take the time to defend them,   This is a DISCUSSION FORUM, not a fan club, if that was your opinion about Genesis, I would express my disagreement, WITH ARGUMENTS, but never try to silence you.   Eric, you know me, my opinion about H Marillion is even harder than what I posted, if somebody asks for it, as the foirst post impied, I will answer, if we want to shut people here, then we will start to censor the reviews and PA will became useless.   Younknow I'm a Genesis fan, but I left the Genesis forum, because you were almost forced to say all Genesis is perfect, and it's not, here we have the freedom to express our opinions and I will do it.   The last thing I want is to have problems with a good friend like you, but I will never compromise my opinion.   rushfan4 wrote: I have to say that I am with you on this one E.  Ivan and Friede are coming off as stereotypical prog snobs in this thread if you ask my opinion.   Why Prog snob?   I believe Hogarth Marillon is boring, and lame, why should I avoid giving my honest opinuion  if somebody asks?   This is not wonderland, there are good, average, mediocre and terrible bands, if somebody starts a therad about a band he/she must be ready to read the opinions of people who don't like them as welll as thse who like them.   Prog snob is a cliche that has no relation with his issue, somebody asked for OPINIONS, not for PRAISES.   Iván.

Ivan, if the case of my argument coming solely from the perspective of big H era Marillion fan, then I would be throwing a sh*t fit at every single negative comment on this site. I don't care who likes them and who doesn't. I believe that it's every person's right to explore new music. That, my friend, is plain and simple. So you, Friede can call it whatever you like. If I'm a 'fanboy', then I guess I'm a fanboy in your eyes. I was simply defending a person's freedom of choice. From the arguments that I've seen from your side, you weren't even promoting the opportunity.

And the question wasn't if anyone found the band lame and boring. They were asking for suggestions for a good starting point. Talk about plain and simple.

And I'm not asking for you to compromise your opinion. That's not giving me any credit. I'm only asking that a person should be allowed to at least try. You check my track record....I've never asked anyone not to give something a try. I'll give my opinion, but I won't tell them to not try something.

I don't know how to explain it any better.

E

ptkc123 wrote: But still, and I will say this again, my question is "Which h-era Marillion albums to acquire and what to expect of them," but it seems as though some people are seeing the question as "Should I listen to the h-era, and if so, which albums should I get."  It seems as though Friede and Ivan assumed that I had not heard h-era, when in reality, that still doesn't change the nature of my initial question.    (BTW, I appreciate all of your opinions and views[it's better than none])

I did indeed understand you that way, which is why I gave you my answer. Had I understood the question the way you meant it I would not have replied. You appear to like Hogarth-era opinion, I don't; de gustibus non est disputandum.

But still, and I will say this again, my question is "Which h-era Marillion albums to acquire and what to expect of them," but it seems as though some people are seeing the question as "Should I listen to the h-era, and if so, which albums should I get."  It seems as though Friede and Ivan assumed that I had not heard h-era, when in reality, that still doesn't change the nature of my initial question. 

E-Dub wrote: Ivan, DO NOT twist my words around. That really steams my ass. I never said that this was a Praise Hogarth thread. I'm merely defending the person's right to at least give it a chance. Pure and simple. I've heard people say, "You know, I don't personally like them, but I have found at that  a lot of people like ....."

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 03 2010 at 17:09