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Topic ClosedIs Rush really a Prog band ?
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DaysBeforeTomorrow View Drop Down
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Points: 34 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2010 at 10:03
I totally agree. Rush have never been metal, even if they may have had one or two very heavy songs in the past. Like Biff Tannen said, bands are defined by their "core sound" -- great way to put it. 

And today, nobody would ever call Rush prog metal, so I hope the advocates of that stop saying it around here :-p. Dream Theater are prog metal, as are Trivium and Mind Key... but Rush are far from metal by today's standard.

OK, I think this thread has wasted enough time. How about switching to a new question, like will KISS still be going strong after Gene and Paul are dead and new guys are wearing their face makeup? :-p
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Points: 159 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2010 at 09:59
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 

Originally posted by Biff Tannen Biff Tannen wrote:



And they are absolutely not metal.  Never have been, never will be. 
 
Wow - you seem very sure - can you say why they have never been metal?
 
Do you mean to say that Iron Maiden aren't metal too?
 


Because they have never done metal.  The hardest songs they have ever done - "The Necromancer," "2112," "Cygnus X-1," etc. - were all hard rocking, but not metal. 

Besides, even if those songs were metal, that doesn't make them an outright metal band.  A band is usually defined according to genre by their core sound, by what they do most of the time.  Hard rock has been the one constant throughout their entire career.  Like I said, even if you want to call those hard rocking songs I mentioned earlier metal, I don't think less than 5 metal songs in a career that has lasted 35 years qualifies them as being a metal band.

And I didn't say anything about Iron Maiden, so what do they have to do with this discussion?
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2010 at 01:37
Originally posted by jaareli jaareli wrote:


could you give me an example of them doing this "riff inversion" thing? I'm curious as to what it is.
 
The very simplest (and earliest) example I can think of is "Seek and Destroy". In this song, the second riff is used as a kind of springboard for many of the other riffs, especially during the instrumental. I go into this technique in a little depth in the reviews I wrote, so won't repeat myself here.
 
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=186699
 
 
You can see this in several ways, of course, the most negative being as a very "cheap" way to write a song, by simply using the same riff all the way through and changing it a bit.
 
I think it's a lot cleverer than that, especially given Burton's background and style, and the fact that Metallica used this technique quite a lot on later albums to far greater effect. This wasn't just a lucky fluke of an idea - this was something Metallica repeatedly experimented with, and why they were so different to their peers.
 
 
Originally posted by Biff Tannen Biff Tannen wrote:



And they are absolutely not metal.  Never have been, never will be. 
 
Wow - you seem very sure - can you say why they have never been metal?
 
Do you mean to say that Iron Maiden aren't metal too?
 
 


Edited by Certif1ed - March 29 2010 at 01:39
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Points: 159 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2010 at 10:19
Rush has always been at heart a hard rock band.  They themselves have said this many times.  They had a prog phase, but have never really been a full-fledged prog band, ala Yes, ELP, etc. 

And they are absolutely not metal.  Never have been, never will be. 
"What are you looking at, butthead?"
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Points: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2010 at 22:52
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

A fair question, and I'd really need to familiarise myself more with the Rush albums I've only listened to on a cursory basis to give a fair answer.
 
On this one aspect, it seems to me that Metallica explored riffs to a greater extent, using riff inversions and fragments to produce something unlike anything else in metal at the time - but quite similar to King Crimson's approach, where Crimson wrote riff-based music - and I've yet to hear a metal band that successfully merges this into the genre outside of a purely technical approach, so Metallica remain unique in what they produced before their self-titled album.



could you give me an example of them doing this "riff inversion" thing? I'm curious as to what it is.
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Points: 206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2010 at 01:07
Is Rush a prog band? Does Elmer Fudd have trouble with the letter R?
" Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR
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Points: 522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 13:44
Yes, Rush is a prog band. They are also heavy.Rawks
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 11:41
I can remember when 25 years ago meant Bill Haley and The Comets.
 
 
 
...and no, they weren't Metal either.
 
 
 
 
...or Prog.
What?
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Points: 34 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 11:02
sh*t! I remember when 25 years ago meant the 70s. Ouch! You're so right. I definitely meant Rush pre-80s. :-p
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Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 10:44
Originally posted by DaysBeforeTomorrow DaysBeforeTomorrow wrote:


To call Rush a metal band -- or prog metal -- would be way out of touch with the evolution of hard rock and metal over the past 25 years. Prog metal has shredders ripping up technical solos -- Alex is fantastic but he's not a shredder.

 
You missed the date range.....even at 25 yrs that only puts us at 1985...We were talking in the 70's not 80's. So I still can agree that Rush in the early to mid 70's could have been called a prog metal band. DT, Mind Key and the others you mentioned are prog metal from the 2000's......a bit of a time difference.
 
And in the context of other prog groups like Genesis, Yes, PF.....Rush were much harder than these. I would NOT like to see/hear Alex attempt to shred to the likes of Petrucci, does not fit the Rush music style/genre.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 10:27
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Keyboards in metal were just coming to the fore in the late 1970s/early 1980s - Dio had them, Diamond Head used them on Canterbury, Praying Mantis used them, Ozzy had them, Uriah Heep had them (Abominog is a strong metal album in true NWoBHM style, despite the keys)...
 
That gives me an idea for another thread to research - thanks!
 
(You're right - keyboards were considered a very "non-metal" thing back then, but that didn't stop bands using them - didn't Priest use them on some tracks? Then there was Rick Wakeman's famous outing on "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath", Blue Oyster Cult... I'll get on with the research)


They did indeed, especially on their first two albums. Actually, as I'm sure you know, guitarist Glenn Tipton learned to play the piano before he took up the guitar. Check "Epitaph" from Sad Wings of Destiny, which is basically piano and vocals.


Edited by Raff - March 26 2010 at 10:29
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 10:23
Keyboards in metal were just coming to the fore in the late 1970s/early 1980s - Dio had them, Diamond Head used them on Canterbury, Praying Mantis used them, Ozzy had them, Uriah Heep had them (Abominog is a strong metal album in true NWoBHM style, despite the keys)...
 
That gives me an idea for another thread to research - thanks!
 
(You're right - keyboards were considered a very "non-metal" thing back then, but that didn't stop bands using them - didn't Priest use them on some tracks? Then there was Rick Wakeman's famous outing on "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath", Blue Oyster Cult... I'll get on with the research)


Edited by Certif1ed - March 26 2010 at 10:24
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Points: 34 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 09:20
Wow, Certif1ed -- those links are a LOT to digest... you should publish a book with all that content!

I was a teen in the mid and late 80s in the NY/NJ area and back then, we thought metal was Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Ozzy Ozzbourn, while "classic" metal was Motorhead and Black Sabbath.

But during this important decade in Rush's career their music had a lot of keyboards, which back then were not a defining characteristic of metal music. Guest vocalists like 'Til Tuesday's Aimee Mann certainly don't add to the metal vibe, either :-p.

I think that while it makes sense historically that Rush was grouped with metal bands back on their first 3-4 albums, they left that genre behind in the 80s and never returned to it. They just evolved into a different band from back then.

But hey, can we perhaps agree that Rush is a fantastic, influential, inspiring band (for many people) that straddles the line between prog rock, metal, and classic rock? We can save the prog metal debate for another year (because I don't think I can handle it).

:-)

Scott
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2010 at 06:19
Originally posted by DaysBeforeTomorrow DaysBeforeTomorrow wrote:

Not to start a flame war or anything like that, but Rush are NOT prog metal. They don't even come close to metal. 
 
OK, now we need to define "metal".
 
Nowadays I'd suspect that some of the bona fide originators of the heavy metal genre could be described as "not even close to metal", if metal is only stuff like Fear Factory or Killswitch Engage.
 
Back in the day, it was heavy metal rock and roll - the rock and roll bit was still there.
 
Rush were as much a metal band as Judas Priest, Saxon, AC/DC and Motorhead - all very different takes on the genre, but metal nonetheless. I have a copy of Kerrang! issue #1 around somewhere...
 
Originally posted by DaysBeforeTomorrow DaysBeforeTomorrow wrote:

Dream Theater are the reining champions of prog metal. Other bands in that genre (or sub genre) would include Mind Key, Pagan's Mind, and possibly Trivium.

Rush are more of a melodic prog band, or some people call it neo prog, because it has progressive moments with AOR influences.
 
Hmm - best not to get into this can of worms I think... this is just your opinion of where these bands are, in terms of genre.
 
Originally posted by DaysBeforeTomorrow DaysBeforeTomorrow wrote:


To call Rush a metal band -- or prog metal -- would be way out of touch with the evolution of hard rock and metal over the past 25 years. Prog metal has shredders ripping up technical solos -- Alex is fantastic but he's not a shredder.
 
Who cares if he's not a shredder? That's simply not important! Back then, Alex was one of the top tech guitarists. Not quite in the same league as the Holdsworths, Moores, Roths and Schenkers (technically speaking) - but top notch nonetheless.
 
To ignore the fact that Rush ARE a metal band is way out of touch with the evolution of hard rock and metal over the last 28 years (I pin the first metal track down to a band called Dust).
 
Originally posted by DaysBeforeTomorrow DaysBeforeTomorrow wrote:


As for my background making these statements (to put it in perspective), I'm the guitar player in the melodic progressive rock band, Days Before Tomorrow, and we share far more in common with Rush and Marillion than with King Crimson. I also work in the music biz by day as the editor in chief of the online magazine MusicPlayers.com, where we talk regularly with members of these various bands.

Just my humble opinion, of course :-).

Scott
http://www.myspace.com/daysbeforetomorrow (my band)
http://www.musicplayers.com (my day job)

 
I don't care to say anything about my background - but it looks like you need to bone up on your history of heavy metal, Scott...Wink
 
 
Try this thread; http://www.musicbanter.com/rock-metal/44034-history-heavy-metal-thread.html
...and this one; http://www.musicbanter.com/rock-metal/44519-songs-define-metal.html
 
Geek
 
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
Progressive Metal is a good label for them - the music has a kind of metal core in its hard rock approach - riffs which are often more complex than you'd expect, longer acoustic passages, and elongated song structures, particularly in the instrumentals.
 

Damn. Under these definition, we could even include bands like Dream Theater in progressive-metal! ShockedWink
 
Indeed - I don't believe that's ever been up for question... Wink


Edited by Certif1ed - March 26 2010 at 06:31
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Points: 5482 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2010 at 15:59
Rush is progressive.
Rush Limbaugh is not progressive.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Points: 34 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2010 at 15:45
Not to start a flame war or anything like that, but Rush are NOT prog metal. They don't even come close to metal. 

Dream Theater are the reining champions of prog metal. Other bands in that genre (or sub genre) would include Mind Key, Pagan's Mind, and possibly Trivium.

Rush are more of a melodic prog band, or some people call it neo prog, because it has progressive moments with AOR influences.

To call Rush a metal band -- or prog metal -- would be way out of touch with the evolution of hard rock and metal over the past 25 years. Prog metal has shredders ripping up technical solos -- Alex is fantastic but he's not a shredder.

As for my background making these statements (to put it in perspective), I'm the guitar player in the melodic progressive rock band, Days Before Tomorrow, and we share far more in common with Rush and Marillion than with King Crimson. I also work in the music biz by day as the editor in chief of the online magazine MusicPlayers.com, where we talk regularly with members of these various bands.

Just my humble opinion, of course :-).

Scott
http://www.myspace.com/daysbeforetomorrow (my band)
http://www.musicplayers.com (my day job)
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Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2010 at 15:44
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I can understand the question being asked - when listening to Rush, there are precious few times that you forget you're listening to a hard rock act - progressive or otherwise.
 
Rush are probably the classic example of what I was getting at when trying to decipher the difference (if there is one) between "Prog" and "Progressive".
 
There can be no doubt that they played progressive music.
 
But it's not the same kind of Progressive music as (early) Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, Gentle Giant et al - one could say it's in a different league, without insinuating that one is necessarily better than the other.
 
The early albums were primarily Hard Rock in the same vein as Led Zeppelin - with similar "progressive" tendencies, but nothing overall to suggest a "full-blown" Prog band.
 
The later albums were varied, and, while they contained a lot of attributes that we could consider "Prog", this whole approach of identifying the music by attributes is skewed - and we can probably blame Rush for this!
 
Back in the 1970s (I was "there" too!), we called Rush Progressive Metal. Others didn't, but my immediate circle did - so you kind of got the feeling that "everyone" did - and this kind of phenomenon is very common.
 
Progressive Metal is a good label for them - the music has a kind of metal core in its hard rock approach - riffs which are often more complex than you'd expect, longer acoustic passages, and elongated song structures, particularly in the instrumentals.
 
But it's a different overall approach to composition to early Genesis et al - so I'd say that Rush are NOT a Prog band, rather an early Progressive Metal band who sometimes ventured into Prog territory.
 
 
/dons flame-retardent suit Wink
 
 
 
Dude...that's awesome! I have NEVER in my 30+ yrs of listening to Rush ever compared them to Genesis, King Crimson or Gentle Giant....I think for some reason folks will bunch them in there because of the word "progressive" and because of the time frame 70's.
 
Prog metal back in the 70's I may agree....because they did play pretty hard compared to Genesis, KC and GG...
 
I always describe Rush as a band within its own genre, I do find it hard to categorize their music.......since it inlcudes Hard rock, Metal, Symphonic...even New wave........sounds Progressive to me LOLWink
 
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Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2010 at 15:31
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


 
By the way, are DT already legends? 

Holy repeat Batman!!! Don't bring that dead horse up again......Shocked
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2010 at 15:17
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
Progressive Metal is a good label for them - the music has a kind of metal core in its hard rock approach - riffs which are often more complex than you'd expect, longer acoustic passages, and elongated song structures, particularly in the instrumentals.
 
 
 

Damn. Under these definition, we could even include bands like Dream Theater in progressive-metal! ShockedWink
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2010 at 08:09
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by JROCHA JROCHA wrote:

Yes they are, enough said

/thread. 









By the way, are DT already legends? 


or even atheist legends with private health care ? Confused


And on a low-carb, high-protein diet, don't forgetWink!


LOL
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