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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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 Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:56 |
We all respect Chris fight, he believes Face Value is Prog, I disagree radically, but I wouldn't accept any disrespect for hs opinion and fight.
As a fact,. this is one of the few times I'm in the majority, because my position is 100% purist and usually people don't agree with this, but since I'm here, my opinions ghave been accepted, somethimes I got what I believed and a lot more I lost, but the fun is in the debate.
I would never join a forum in which I say "The Musical Box is the best song ever" (what I believe) and as repkly I receive 100% of support...I want to see people saying that Close to the Edge is Better or even a Dream Theater song (Which I don't like), or even people saying The Musical Box is mediocre if they give reasonable arguments I can contradict or at least debate.
We are not here to add bands automatically, we are here to make a case, to support it, to deate with those who disagree and to accept what the administrators or the teams decide,.......The fun and the importance of a discussion forum...In discussion itself, and if somebody gets bored, there are always fan clubs where everything good you say about an artist will be cheered by the vast majority.
My full respect to Chris.
Iván
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omri
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Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:32 |
I just wanted to tell Chris that I admire him for fighting for his ideas (which personally I don't agree with). I think everyone has the right to do that and if someone finds it boring he can move on to another thread.
I wish to support Ivan and claim that actually 2 songs of Billy Joel (Piano man & NY state of mind) are much more proggier than In the air tonight (IMO) and still I don't find Joel as a prog artist.
I realy feel the problem started with the adition of Supertramp who do not have even one full prog album (Dreamer, remember ?).
It's only my thoughts and it's ofcorse debateable.
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omri
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 24 2010 at 10:26 |
 RoyFairbank wrote:
Overall, it would be nice to have him on the site, |
It would be nice to have many artists, I would love to review "Tea for the Tillerman" which is a fantastic album.................But it isn't Prog, so there's no place for him in Prog Archives, even if he recruited
But Prog Archives was created to have a Prog database, not a "nice" database.
RoyFairbank wrote:
and I don't think anyone would complain too loudly about Genesis' drummer being on the site, |
I would, I consider there's no place for a Pop artist who never released a single Prog note (as a soloist), much less if he publicly declared his despise for Progressive Rock.
If he's here..Why not Billy Joel? Billly played in a Prog band called Attila (And he never said Prog was crap)..
RoyFairbank wrote:
t is after all, probably the biggest Prog band in history, or in the top two or three. |
Yes, Genesis is the best band in history according to my taste....but Genesis is already here.
RoyFairbank wrote:
We have all the non-prog albums by every artist on this site, why not the non-prog albums of one of their members?
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This artists are he because even if they released 100 POP albums...They had at least one Prog album, so it's ok to add that album (and for that reason all his dischography.
But Collins doesn't have a Prog song, so why should we add the 100% non Prog dischography of an artist?
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 24 2010 at 10:30
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RoyFairbank
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Posted: April 24 2010 at 10:03 |
Chris S wrote:
^ haha.....yes let's add his most pop single to PA.
Let me redefine my earlier statement, the perception was that prog had died in the late 70's with the advent of punk, new wave etc but some people believe even as 'prog purists' that Duke, Abacab and Shapes were great prog albums albeit more pop orientated as were 80's Camel etc.
Face Value was a IMO a solid prog offering for the early 80's.Perhaps as he we such an influential person for other artists releases also , i.e Daryl Stuermer he should be included into PA as an entry/Bio but with no albums listed but recognising his credentials..... Because the majority 'Prog Community' believe he does not exist, at the very least recognise his individual status. But again that would be against PA rules and regulations 
Anyway I won't give up that is my OCD stubborness  |
I take a position to the "right" of you but not as "conservative" as Ivan. I think 80s Genesis is great Prog although the albums are littered with mediocre pop (oddly often worst than Phil Collins solo). The albums are contradictory and prog purists don't like that. But it was pretty common, you see elements of AOR and Pop in most albums from the 80s, even neo-prog like Pallas' The Sentinel. Of course Asia fuses Prog sensibilities with an overwhelming dose of pop and AOR. Genesis by these standards was quite progressive, with long compositions, instrumentals and interesting lyrics and concepts. Phil Collins brings to bear a lot of interesting musical textures, moods, considerate, oftentimes interesting lyrics and concepts. In this respect he is similar to Genesis, but I disagree that anything he did is Prog. Some albums are really, really good pop, such as Both Sides, and contributions like In the Air, Another Day in Paradise, I don't care anymore, etc. His No Jacket Required is quite blatant on the other hand. Nevertheless, it is still good. Overall, it would be nice to have him on the site, and I don't think anyone would complain too loudly about Genesis' drummer being on the site, it is after all, probably the biggest Prog band in history, or in the top two or three. We have all the non-prog albums by every artist on this site, why not the non-prog albums of one of their members?
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Chris S
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 13:14 |
^ haha.....yes let's add his most pop single to PA.
Let me redefine my earlier statement, the perception was that prog had died in the late 70's with the advent of punk, new wave etc but some people believe even as 'prog purists' that Duke, Abacab and Shapes were great prog albums albeit more pop orientated as were 80's Camel etc.
Face Value was a IMO a solid prog offering for the early 80's.Perhaps as he we such an influential person for other artists releases also , i.e Daryl Stuermer he should be included into PA as an entry/Bio but with no albums listed but recognising his credentials..... Because the majority 'Prog Community' believe he does not exist, at the very least recognise his individual status. But again that would be against PA rules and regulations
Anyway I won't give up that is my OCD stubborness |
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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The T
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:17 |
Oh add him now! If only for SuSudio... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:37 |
Chris S wrote:
That's your opinion and I guess one of the reasons that prog died in the late 70's because people were adverse to change. Rave on punk and the late Malcolm... |
Well Chris, I don't believe Prog died in the late 70's, Prog entered in a crisis because the most representative Progressive Rock bands left Progressive Rock behind and started to release POP oriented albums in a valid (for them) attempt of making real money.
And that's OK, every musician or band has the God given right to release whatever they want, they also have the right to say Progressive Rock is crap and to thank Punk for shaking the musical tree and make bad bands (referring to Prog), fall like bad apples...(This was almost literally said by Phil Collins in Genesis a History).
But don't expect Progressive Rock fans to still want to praise this guys or to believe Illegal Alien is a masterpiece.
It's so clear that Prog didn't died in the 70's, that as soon as bands like Anglagard and Par Lindh Project started to release Prog albums again, the genre resurrected.
As soon as a band like Dream Theater (That I don't like), dared to blend Metal with Prog, they got new fans, as soon as an Alternative band like Radiohead dared to do something more adventurous and close to Prog, created interest in the people.
Also remember that the Prog fan (Unlike most mainstream fans) follows MUSIC, not NAMES, when Rick Wakeman released Six Wifes, everybody got the album, when he released Rhapsodies, not even his fans wanted to buy the album, it was Prog, yes, but it was sub-standard for him, and people didn't liked it.
Chris S wrote:
To call late Genesis a ' Debacle" makes me realize that even the most credible opinions here amount to " not too much" |
For those of us who grew with the Prog masterpieces, albums like ABACAB or Shapes were a debacle, they were making music some of us hated. Except the Brazilian, I don't find any post Duke song I can listen, hat's my taste, you have to accept it.
Chris S wrote:
The OCD behaviour of some to exclude ' Emotional" well known artists is a joke versus inclusion of newer unknown bands. |
Chris, if an emotional and well known artist makes a Prog album..great, we will add him, but if this same artist makes great or bad POP, they can't be added to a Progressive Rock site, because this is not the place for that music.
If an obscure or absolutely unknown artist makes Progressive Rock albums, it's our duty to add them to "The ultimate Progressive Rock Resource", that's why we are here, because of Progressive Rock, we want to make the biggest and most reliable PROGRESSIVE ROCK database.
For other genres, there are other sites, I wouldn't ask to Punk77 to add "In the Court of the Crimson King", because Fripp is such a great artist, no..They are in the web to promote Punk, no matter how good Gabriel, Fripp, Emerson, Wakeman and whoever we admire is, Punk77 doesn't have to ad them, because they would loose credibility among their fans.
The big emotional artist argument makes no sense, we are here for the music, not for the stature or importance oof the artist.
Chris S wrote:
I won't relent on this subject nor will Ivan ( all credit to him), not while this site exists ( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll) |
Nobody believes you have any interest, you are as stubbornn and me and you know whatyoun like, and I resopect that even if I disagree with your opinion.
Iván.
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Chris S
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 02:57 |
b_olariu wrote:
This discussion gets boring and nowhere, what is the point after all. Anyway I'm agree with Ivan 100%. Chris made some unremarkable points lately here. I want to know how long will this go |
That's your opinion and I guess one of the reasons that prog died in the late 70's because people were adverse to change. Rave on punk and the late Malcolm....
To call late Genesis a ' Debacle" makes me realize that even the most credible opinions here amount to " not too much"
The OCD behaviour of some to exclude ' Emotional" well known artists is a joke versus inclusion of newer unknown bands.
I won't relent on this subject nor will Ivan ( all credit to him), not while this site exists ( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll)
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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b_olariu
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Joined: March 02 2007
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 01:44 |
This discussion gets boring and nowhere, what is the point after all. Anyway I'm agree with Ivan 100%. Chris made some unremarkable points lately here. I want to know how long will this go
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 01:22 |
Chris S wrote:
^ Define......" Prog Rock Community"....... , cyber self affirmation???? Please let's not go there. |
1.- Check all the Prog sites...Is he listed as Prog in the majority..Minority...None?
As far as I know only in Progressiveears along with Simon Collins (Yes his son and I can't guess why), and with this description:
"Sadly misunderstood, Once great drummer of Genesis and Brand X, forsook both for pop oriented music "
2.- Check the majority opinion in Prog Archives, there are plenty threads
3.- Visit other forums and sites and check the opinions of the people about Phil Collins.
4.- Read the replies in this thread alone.
5.- Please tell me the name of a publication or an article where HIS SOLO material is credited as Progressive Rock.
And please, don't tell me this is the only site you visited and that you never read the general opinion about him, some people respect him as a good solo artist (I don't, I consider his music boring and I'm honest to acept it), but the general opinion is not only that he's not Prog, but most of the posts I read during my life, blame him for Genesis debacle.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 23 2010 at 01:36
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Chris S
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:57 |
^ Define......" Prog Rock Community"......., cyber self affirmation???? Please let's not go there.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:01 |
I respect your opinion, even when I differ totally, as the vast majority of the Prog Rock community.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 23 2010 at 00:04
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Chris S
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:53 |
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^ Well I beg to differ on Face value alone so we can debate ad nauseum.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:42 |
Chris S wrote:
I have been a member here for 6 years ( same as you) and I still believe this is PA's biggest failing from a credibility standpoint. All his work with Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, Brand X etc etc etc etc
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I believe it doesn't make sense to add an artist as Prog soloist for his work with others.
His work with Hackett, Brand X, etc etc may be Prog or Prog Related, but you are talking about the work of Hackett, Gabriel, Brand X (as a band), not the work of Phil Collins, he was only a band member or a session musician hired by other artists who wrote Prog albums.
But if he's got to be added as Phil Collins in ProgArchives, IT SHOULD BE EXCLUSIVELY FOR HIS SOLO WORK, and none of his albums has the slightest relation with Progressive Rock
Should Randy Jackson (The judge of American Idol) be here, because he was the several years bass player of Jean Luc Ponty and Journey?
Brand X, Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, are already here, because they released Prog albums, Phil Collins has not done that, so he should not be here until he releases a Progressive Rock album.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 22 2010 at 23:52
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WalterDigsTunes
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:35 |
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I remember I lived with this chilean b*tch of a host mother who would BLAST phil collins solo work on her goddamned 5.1 system up until 2 am and she would sing along to the BANAL lyrics that she didn't even understand. A pox upon her hateful house and no to solo phil in PA.
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Chris S
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:27 |
Sorry Ivan but you know I will dispel your opinion on excluding Collins as not making sense.
Until PA recognise Phil Collins as a necessary ingredient to this site even if for Face Value alone then Max and the site have missed the boat. An exception should be made for Face Value. Ignoring him as a member of Progressive influence alone is tantamount to a criminal record ( Sorry Rick Wakeman )
I have been a member here for 6 years ( same as you) and I still believe this is PA's biggest failing from a credibility standpoint. All his work with Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, Brand X etc etc etc etc
Phil should be given the red carpet treatment, after all he has more prog leanings in his left toe than any of us could ever dream of.....even in San Antonio 
Bring on new debates, as long as I am alive I will challenge this terrible exclusion.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:01 |
RoyFairbank wrote:
somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive! |
I honestly don't believe Trevor Rabin has released a single Propg or Related album AS A SOLO ARTIST, so no reason to add him.
RoyFairbank wrote:
But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site. |
The same can be said about The Wings, some Bee Gees albums as Odessa (Which is even conceptual), and nobody even dreams about adding them.
I see more merit in troubadours as Cat Stevens (Hey, he played with Wakeman and Peter Gabriel) or Al Stewart, who released iconic albums, but simply not Prog or related so they are not here.
Bat Out of Hell (Known as Wagnerian Rock) and the operatic performances of Meat Loaf are light years closer to Prog than any Phil Collins albums, but still have been rejected (even by me, a hardcore fan of Steinman's compositions)
If we add an artist as Phil Collins who as a SOLOIST never recorded a single Progressive Rock song, then there would be no excuse to reject anybody, and we would cease to be ProgArchives to be a bad copy of Allmusic.
RoyFairbank wrote:
WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN? |
I believe we have fun with Progressive Rock.
If I want to talk about other genres, I go to the adequate forum.
RoyFairbank wrote:
There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans  . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple.
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The problem is that it's not one artist, it's our credibility.
We are the number one site in the net because people trust us, if we add whoever we want just for fun, we will cease to be a reliable site, people will stop visiting us and we will loose sponsors who keep this site alive.
We already had problems with other artists, but Phil Collins AS A SOLO ARTIST is the antithesis of Progressive Rock.
Iván
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:27 |
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I think we should add it just for the 1 stars all his albums would end up being rated. I would find great satisfaction in that
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Logan
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:24 |
RoyFairbank wrote:
somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive!
But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site.
WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN?
There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple.
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Yes, let's have fun! Spinal Tap for PA! (and we could move this topic to the Just for Fun forum for fun, or better yet, how about a new PA category called Just for Fun for Phil Collins?). 
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RoyFairbank
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:02 |
somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive! But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN? There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple.
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Phil Collins and here's why. . . . .
