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Topic ClosedThe Theist - Agnostic - Atheist Poll
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Poll Question: What are you?
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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:58
I didn't make a mistake. Stern Smile
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:51
Originally posted by James James wrote:

You know, you'll all correct and you're all incorrect all at the same time.


We'll not all correct...but I'll correct your mistake.  WinkTongue
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:51
I am who I am, and I am who am are slightly different. I think importantly. But I'm a big nerd.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:49
You know, you'll all correct and you're all incorrect all at the same time.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:38
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



I AM.

LOL

(maybe the biblically-literate will chuckle at my poor attempt at humor)
 
I get it. I find that the definition of hisownself God gives is strikingly similar to a Vedantic conception of Brahman. Of course that's just the stuff I'm reading right now (the Upanishads) so of course I'm going to see the parallels.
 
You might enjoy reading that once.
 
The real definition is "Ego Sum Qui Sum"....Or in other words I an who I am, this was he answer God gave to Moses when he asked the name of God.
 
 Ait Moyses ad Deum : Ecce ego vadam ad filios Israël, et dicam eis : Deus patrum vestrorum misit me ad vos. Si dixerint mihi : Quod est nomen ejus? quid dicam eis? 14 Dixit Deus ad Moysen : Ego sum qui sum. Ait : Sic dices filiis Israël : Qui est, misit me ad vos. 15 Dixitque iterum Deus ad Moysen 
 
13 Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers has sent me to you. If they shall say to me: What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shall you say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, has sent me to you
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 06 2010 at 12:39
            
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jampa17 View Drop Down
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

^ You were guessing because you don't want to make test on person and those near to death causes, and again you are defining what is to be death or alive... I know, you can give me an explanation of what is to be alive and what's not... BUT, history and many cases have proove us that the limit between life and death is not that clear, and you can believe it or not... but there's plenty evidence of people been death for some seconds or even minutes, as we understand the functions of our vital organs, so... you cannot assure they were not dead, I'm not saying they were...
I'm sure that when people are resuscitated or revived that they certainly died by some medical definition (heart stopped, brain activity stopped) - however there is a finite time limit on how long that body can be in that state before resuscitation is impossible - once the brain has deteriorated beyond the point were it can maintain normal bodily functions (ususally 3-5 minutes). That is clear enough - if someone can be revived then they didn't physically die - they would only be dead if not revivied. You can say they actually died if you like, but since you believe in the existence of a soul, I would question that assumption - surely spiritual death would be when the soul left the body. Of course, you will now cite cases of "out of body" experience - again I say these are halucinations or dream-states. (we can carry on like this all day if you like Wink)
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
and the excuses, you see that you don't waste time saying that it might be a vision or the reaction of some physical nerves or whatever, with no centertantly proof of it... and then... about the explanation of the ausence of God existence... I read somewhere on these thread that there's people who see the evidence of God in everything that surround us and people who just don't see it at all... so... again... Dean, you are a smart person... I am giving you a believer explanation... God doesn't need us, nor need our believing in him... and again, if he chooses to send us a sign, you will doubt about it... as well as the believers will believe, so... we are back to square one... you think you can discount the idea of God because He didn't let you a proof while I'm glad that He didn't give me a sign, so I can believe in him without been force to believe in the evident... now you get what I'm saying...???
I have never not got what you are saying. I do not discount the idea of god because he didn't give me a sign, if you read back through all I have written I never discounted the idea of god, because I believe that it is a fundamental human requirement - mankind needs (or at least needed) to believe in a higher power so invented the idea of gods to fill that need, however, I will discount the assumption that god exists based on this idea.
 
I know we can go on this way non of your explanation can satisfy me because you already agree that you have not study this phenomena and that for you it don't worth to try... and as I told you... I do not believe in all of these matters that I mentioned, just put out there just to prove that not everything can be understandable -at least, not yet- by science... and that's my point through all this... you can say all of these are just halucinations... but that's an excuse Dean... because you are the one who want proof, and you don't have conclussion on the matter... so, for me... it's an excuse...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:27
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

^ You were guessing because you don't want to make test on person and those near to death causes, and again you are defining what is to be death or alive... I know, you can give me an explanation of what is to be alive and what's not... BUT, history and many cases have proove us that the limit between life and death is not that clear, and you can believe it or not... but there's plenty evidence of people been death for some seconds or even minutes, as we understand the functions of our vital organs, so... you cannot assure they were not dead, I'm not saying they were...
I'm sure that when people are resuscitated or revived that they certainly died by some medical definition (heart stopped, brain activity stopped) - however there is a finite time limit on how long that body can be in that state before resuscitation is impossible - once the brain has deteriorated beyond the point were it can maintain normal bodily functions (ususally 3-5 minutes). That is clear enough - if someone can be revived then they didn't physically die - they would only be dead if not revivied. You can say they actually died if you like, but since you believe in the existence of a soul, I would question that assumption - surely spiritual death would be when the soul left the body. Of course, you will now cite cases of "out of body" experience - again I say these are halucinations or dream-states. (we can carry on like this all day if you like Wink)
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
and the excuses, you see that you don't waste time saying that it might be a vision or the reaction of some physical nerves or whatever, with no centertantly proof of it... and then... about the explanation of the ausence of God existence... I read somewhere on these thread that there's people who see the evidence of God in everything that surround us and people who just don't see it at all... so... again... Dean, you are a smart person... I am giving you a believer explanation... God doesn't need us, nor need our believing in him... and again, if he chooses to send us a sign, you will doubt about it... as well as the believers will believe, so... we are back to square one... you think you can discount the idea of God because He didn't let you a proof while I'm glad that He didn't give me a sign, so I can believe in him without been force to believe in the evident... now you get what I'm saying...???
I have never not got what you are saying. I do not discount the idea of god because he didn't give me a sign, if you read back through all I have written I never discounted the idea of god, because I believe that it is a fundamental human requirement - mankind needs (or at least needed) to believe in a higher power so invented the idea of gods to fill that need, however, I will discount the assumption that god exists based on this idea.
What?
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 12:07
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



I AM.

LOL

(maybe the biblically-literate will chuckle at my poor attempt at humor)
 
I get it. I find that the definition of hisownself God gives is strikingly similar to a Vedantic conception of Brahman. Of course that's just the stuff I'm reading right now (the Upanishads) so of course I'm going to see the parallels.
 
You might enjoy reading that once.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 11:55
^ You were guessing because you don't want to make test on person and those near to death causes, and again you are defining what is to be death or alive... I know, you can give me an explanation of what is to be alive and what's not... BUT, history and many cases have proove us that the limit between life and death is not that clear, and you can believe it or not... but there's plenty evidence of people been death for some seconds or even minutes, as we understand the functions of our vital organs, so... you cannot assure they were not dead, I'm not saying they were...
 
and the excuses, you see that you don't waste time saying that it might be a vision or the reaction of some physical nerves or whatever, with no centertantly proof of it... and then... about the explanation of the ausence of God existence... I read somewhere on these thread that there's people who see the evidence of God in everything that surround us and people who just don't see it at all... so... again... Dean, you are a smart person... I am giving you a believer explanation... God doesn't need us, nor need our believing in him... and again, if he chooses to send us a sign, you will doubt about it... as well as the believers will believe, so... we are back to square one... you think you can discount the idea of God because He didn't let you a proof while I'm glad that He didn't give me a sign, so I can believe in him without been force to believe in the evident... now you get what I'm saying...???
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 11:29
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Near death experiences are not death, whatever happens to the human brain when restricted of oxygen and blood are the subject of hallucination and dream-states, this is a known (and dangerous) phenomena (eg. erotic asphyxiation). I'm not holding my breath in the hope that this will scientifically prove an afterlife. Wink
 
Now you are guessing... so... I wasn't saying that I believe it... just putting out something that science could explore better to discover something else... I understand your point and I'm with you that paranormal phenomena, if there's no physical proof or some kind of recording or documentation of the matter it can't be study properly... but it doesn't mean that we have to discount it... but you are already giving excuses about that particular event, just as I said just above your post about God giving proof of his existence...
Where is the guess?
 
Near-death is not death, then any results or conclusions based on are "eye-witness" accounts are specious. Whatever they saw, think they saw, imagined they saw was not an after-life experience ... because they are still alive. (what would a bright white light be? over stimulation of the optic nerves, short-circuits within the visual cortex that cause an overload, synesthesia causing all nerve impulses to be interpreted as sight, or just the brain shutting down - yeah, they are all guesses, but far more rational, logical and scientific than the guess that it is the soul leaving the body)
 
What excuses am I giving?
 
...hang on let me think this through....
 
God does not give proof of his existence because a) he doesn't want to; b) he doesn't need to; c) he does but we don't understand or d) he cannot; ... hmmm, convenient answers me thinks, all that is required to accept any one of them is the belief that god exists. By asking the question you have hog-tied the non-believer, forcing them to give an excuse - as I have said before, for me as an atheist, it is a non-question, one I will never ask nor answer because the answer proves nothing. Why doesn't Horus give proof of his existence? Why doesn't Harry Potter give proof of his existence? (he is a wizard after all, so it should be simple for him).
 
If I am making "excuses" about paranormal phenomena it is because I don't believe in any of them are worthy of scientific investigation - sure I can call up various scientific theories that could explain some of them, like brane theory, many worlds theories, wormhole theories, but none of them are needed in these cases. You dismiss coincidence out of hand. I don't. That's not an excuse.
 
 


Edited by Dean - January 06 2010 at 11:30
What?
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jampa17 View Drop Down
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:52
I leave for a couple of hours and now you are talking about "divine drinks"!!!! Angry
 
 
 
 
And you don't invite me...!!!
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:32
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



I AM.

LOL

(maybe the biblically-literate will chuckle at my poor attempt at humor)


Fortunately today the term "literacy" is not defined in a biblical sense.Smile
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:23
A non-committal answer then.  I was expecting that.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:22
Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

What's the point of being God if you can't interfere with the natural order of the universe? I think it would get terribly boring.  And with a few divine beers under the belt there's no telling what might happen.  Miracles Pfff.    LOL


Precisely.


What's the point of being God if you have to?  Wink


What's the point of God?

Answer me that.


I AM.

LOL

(maybe the biblically-literate will chuckle at my poor attempt at humor)
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:20
Lot is the God of Lotteries.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:19
Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


Lot's of Citations Needed there Pat. Wink


Who's Lot?

Anyway, the citations needed are mostly in the different names associated with the logical fallacy.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:16
^^ that reminds me of one of the statements that Dennett loves to quote:

"god is so great that the greatness precludes existence."

LOL


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - January 06 2010 at 10:17
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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:16
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

What's the point of being God if you can't interfere with the natural order of the universe? I think it would get terribly boring.  And with a few divine beers under the belt there's no telling what might happen.  Miracles Pfff.    LOL


Precisely.


What's the point of being God if you have to?  Wink


What's the point of God?

Answer me that.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:14
Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

What's the point of being God if you can't interfere with the natural order of the universe? I think it would get terribly boring.  And with a few divine beers under the belt there's no telling what might happen.  Miracles Pfff.    LOL


Precisely.


What's the point of being God if you have to?  Wink
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:12
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


Lot's of Citations Needed there Pat. Wink
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