Why are we such bigots? (or are we?)

The T wrote: Ivan, could you please not take everything so personal?

BaldFriede wrote: That's quite funny; it is about the same way Jean and I went too. Add some world music to it, like Rabih Abou-Khalil, Embryo, Roman Bunka or Roland Schaeffer, and that's about our musical taste.

I'm very glad to hear it! I don't know that much "World Music" but I love Abou-Khalil, Zap Mama and the Nenes (reggae-influenced pop from Okinawa).

I recently bought Tom Moon's 1000 RECORDINGS TO HEAR BEFORE YOU DIE, which is very exciting and truly "catholic" in taste. In my view, there's a sufficient amount of prog in there, even Gong's GAZEUSE; the book's main defect is that no less than 6 (!!!) of those 1000 recordings are by the Beatles while the great Joseph Haydn gets only 1! Anyway, I now realise the time has come to dig much deeper into Brazilian music: Os Mutantes, Caetano Veloso, Tom Ze etc. etc.!

fuxi wrote: Jim Garten wrote: Absolutely Raff - but I'd always differentiate between Metal & prog metal; to my ears, metal means bands such as Motorhead, Priest, System Of A Down & so on. I remember many many arguments in my youth trying to differentiate between heavy metal, heavy rock & hard rock But that's away from the point... Back to the original quote - I think had Fuxi meant the fans he would have said "they're loved by their fans because THEY are loud, rough and uncouth" as opposed to "they're loved by their fans because they ARE loud, rough and uncouth" A small distinction, I know, but as I say, I could be wrong... I thank you, Jim, and I apologise for my sloppy writing. You were 100% right: I was referring to the music, not to the fans. Like nearly all of us I grew up with rock music, and I love certain albums because they are so loud, e.g. THE WHO LIVE AT LEEDS: part of the appeal is its sheer wildness. I once fell in love with a girl who happened to be a classical flautist. I wanted to turn her on to WHO'S NEXT, which is fairly aggressive (though not as rough as LIVE AT LEEDS) but also, to my ears, incredibly subtle, precise, exciting AND moving. You sometimes read the Who used to play with the precision of chamber musicians, and that's the way I've always felt myself. So I started from the start: "Baby O'Riley" - could she hear it was GLORIOUS? No, she could not. Then I played "My Wife" - wasn't that really exhilerating, just for the drumming? Apparently it was not. Only when I played her "Behind Blue Eyes" she seemed to melt a bit. At least until all hell broke loose towards the end. And this was not because she was a snob or a bigot. She was an incredibly nice person - intelligent, sensitive and spontaneous. But it was her tragedy (?) that she was only accustomed to music that was incredibly suble and refined (without getting sentimental). She had no ears for amplified music. I have a similar problem with metal. It's a dimension I do not move in. I've got no problem with Led Zep, ever since I learnt to live with Robert Plant's wail, and I enjoy, for example, the Mars Volta's early albums (which are pretty wild, but sufficiently varied and intricate) - but metal??? I KNOW its fans like it 'cause it's rough and uncouth, 'cause when I was in the army (oh Glory Days!) my roommate (who was also my best friend there) was an amateur heavy metal guitarist who enjoyed nothing more than playing Venom, Loudness, and early Metallica tapes, jumping up and down wildly in the room while banging his head forcefully against our metal locker! I got on really well with him, 'cause the music he enjoyed had far more character than the rubbish most of the other guys liked (there were two WHAM! freaks in our room) and yes, there were prog-like passages in it. Still, I've never been tempted to explore the collected works of Venom and Metallica. (Or even Iron Maiden, Queensryche and the like.) Life is too short, and I'm busy enough exploring other genres. The same goes for rap. If I wanted to, I'm sure I could become a rap aficionado and learn to appreciate the manifold ways rappers spout their words. But the relentless beat puts me off and if I feel like listening to poetry I'll get some British Library recordings instead! So does all this turn me into a "bigot"? Heaven forbid. It just seems that, as you explore certain alleys (and for me, in the past few decades, those alleys have led mainly to French and Italian baroque music, pre-romantic symphonies and oratorios, Berlioz operas, and post-1970 jazz of European origin) you turn your back to others. It simply cannot be helped. But each to his own!

That's quite funny; it is about the same way Jean and I went too. Add some world music to it, like Rabih Abou-Khalil, Embryo, Roman Bunka or Roland Schaeffer, and that's about our musical taste. We both have some embarrassing skeletons in the closet too which I won't mention here and which only one of us likes.

Jim Garten wrote: Absolutely Raff - but I'd always differentiate between Metal & prog metal; to my ears, metal means bands such as Motorhead, Priest, System Of A Down & so on. I remember many many arguments in my youth trying to differentiate between heavy metal, heavy rock & hard rock But that's away from the point... Back to the original quote - I think had Fuxi meant the fans he would have said "they're loved by their fans because THEY are loud, rough and uncouth" as opposed to "they're loved by their fans because they ARE loud, rough and uncouth" A small distinction, I know, but as I say, I could be wrong...

I thank you, Jim, and I apologise for my sloppy writing. You were 100% right: I was referring to the music, not to the fans.

Like nearly all of us I grew up with rock music, and I love certain albums because they are so loud, e.g. THE WHO LIVE AT LEEDS: part of the appeal is its sheer wildness.

I once fell in love with a girl who happened to be a classical flautist. I wanted to turn her on to WHO'S NEXT, which is fairly aggressive (though not as rough as LIVE AT LEEDS) but also, to my ears, incredibly subtle, precise, exciting AND moving. You sometimes read the Who used to play with the precision of chamber musicians, and that's the way I've always felt myself. So I started from the start: "Baby O'Riley" - could she hear it was GLORIOUS? No, she could not. Then I played "My Wife" - wasn't that really exhilerating, just for the drumming? Apparently it was not. Only when I played her "Behind Blue Eyes" she seemed to melt a bit. At least until all hell broke loose towards the end.

And this was not because she was a snob or a bigot. She was an incredibly nice person - intelligent, sensitive and spontaneous. But it was her tragedy (?) that she was only accustomed to music that was incredibly suble and refined (without getting sentimental). She had no ears for amplified music.

I have a similar problem with metal. It's a dimension I do not move in. I've got no problem with Led Zep, ever since I learnt to live with Robert Plant's wail, and I enjoy, for example, the Mars Volta's early albums (which are pretty wild, but sufficiently varied and intricate) - but metal???

I KNOW its fans like it 'cause it's rough and uncouth, 'cause when I was in the army (oh Glory Days!) my roommate (who was also my best friend there) was an amateur heavy metal guitarist who enjoyed nothing more than playing Venom, Loudness, and early Metallica tapes, jumping up and down wildly in the room while banging his head forcefully against our metal locker! I got on really well with him, 'cause the music he enjoyed had far more character than the rubbish most of the other guys liked (there were two WHAM! freaks in our room) and yes, there were prog-like passages in it.

Still, I've never been tempted to explore the collected works of Venom and Metallica. (Or even Iron Maiden, Queensryche and the like.) Life is too short, and I'm busy enough exploring other genres.

The same goes for rap. If I wanted to, I'm sure I could become a rap aficionado and learn to appreciate the manifold ways rappers spout their words. But the relentless beat puts me off and if I feel like listening to poetry I'll get some British Library recordings instead!

So does all this turn me into a "bigot"? Heaven forbid. It just seems that, as you explore certain alleys (and for me, in the past few decades, those alleys have led mainly to French and Italian baroque music, pre-romantic symphonies and oratorios, Berlioz operas, and post-1970 jazz of European origin) you turn your back to others. It simply cannot be helped. But each to his own!

lazland wrote: It isn't bigotry to dislike other types of music - perhaps the wrong word to use, but I do certainly loathe personally rasp/hip hop and mass produced pulp pop. To me it is like the difference between Jilly Cooper or Jackie Collins (mass produced pulp novels) to good literature. The former I hate, the latter I enjoy and relish. That is not to say that the consumers of such stuff are automatically inferior. At the end of the day, Simon Cowell has made an absolute fortune from producing pop to millions. I might not like it, but I long ago gave up trying to fight it - probably about the same time I realised that the UK wasn't going to have the promised revolution after all I do, though, take great exception to the misogyny that is present in much rap, present day pop videos, and hip hop. I'm not a prude, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like my son to grow up with a healthy respect for women, and not just see them as a fantasy piece gyrating for all and sundry to ogle. I am just an unashamed snob when it comes to TV, music, and literature. Not a bigot, just a snob. Now then...can someone promise me that revolution?

You make a great point about the content of mainstream hip hop and rap especially. The ideals on display are extremely degrading to women and I think african american culture as a whole. It's a difficult issue because it's a battle between freedom of speech, and what is right. Sometimes I just wish people were more sensible as a whole, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon.

As for the "bigotry" comment, I can see people up in arms about it. Honestly, the title of the thread was just something I thought was both amusing and likely to get people to click on it. It's very easy to sell controversy on this site

My main theme was not whether we're bigots, but what we think about these different genres of music.

clarke2001 wrote: Raff wrote: One thing is for sure: I'd take good pop any day over bad prog. I'll just say one thing: there are no good or bad genres, there's only good or bad music!

Even that's not true. Music is art, and quality of art is based purely on opinions alone. And what makes one person's opinion more valuable than another's?

On topic, I love rap. I love the British scene above anything though, like Grime and British Garage. I also think that rap is even better when fused with rock music, a la Rage Against The Machine or Faith No More, although an example of this that never clicked with me would be LimpBizcit (or however the hell you spell it). At the moment I'm really getting into DnB with a heavy load of rap in it, like Roni Size or Chase and Status. Yep, I love rap. In fact, it's one of five genres that I listen to: Extreme Metal, Progressive Rock, DnB, Classical Music and finally Rap. And I also agree that there is a lot of creativity involved. Back when rap was in its infancy, there were some extremely poetic and intelligent lyrical content being thrown around.

As far as Country/Folk music goes, I like a bit of folk. Old Gypsy folk though, the kind that Brahms employed into his Hungarian dances. Country music I never got on with however. Dunno why, it just didn't click with me.

I was just addressing a point about your post Raff, the "makes us feel special" part is not about you, who have made it clear you are not like that. Actually, I used "US" because at one point in life I also had those ridiculous ideas which I see everywhere in the forum these days...

stonebeard wrote: Perpetual myth of the snobbish prog fan.... Please take 5 minutes of your time and visit this site: http://zip.4chan.org/mu/imgboard.html Look at all the prog fans snobbing up that place! Bonus points: start a topic about Prog and see what happens. Extra bonus troll points: start a topic on Magma and see what happens. Ridiculous bonus troll points: Harry gets mad at me for linking to that site.

June wrote:   As for folk and country, well, folk is one of my favourite genre, but I was pretty stubborn when it came to country music, and really didn't want to listen to any of it, except for Johnny Cash and The Carter Family, but it just sneaked up on me.

Edited by The T - June 24 2009 at 14:24