US Government- Expand or Decrease?

stonebeard wrote: Taxes are the lifeblood of a government. You get out what you put in. What's most atrocious is the amount of tax money that goes into war compared to that which actually goes into making the country better. Regardless of any ideological bullsh*t, countries with universal healthcare/ socialized medicine are happier than those without (re: Europe). If you don't value happiness, by all means, be anti-socialized medicine out the wazoo.

Post of the year!

Taxes are the lifeblood of a government. You get out what you put in. What's most atrocious is the amount of tax money that goes into war compared to that which actually goes into making the country better. Regardless of any ideological bullsh*t, countries with universal healthcare/ socialized medicine are happier than those without (re: Europe). If you don't value happiness, by all means, be anti-socialized medicine out the wazoo.

hawkcwg wrote: The T wrote: hawkcwg wrote: himtroy wrote: I fail to see why anybody would want a government to expand, especially at this large of a stage already.  The bigger the government gets the less freedom you'll have, and the more corrupt it will get, and then you can't do anything about it, because you have a huge government. Because they themselves don't care about other people, and don't want change, or are not educated on the subject enough to make a logical, rational decision on there own.   I'd prefer more government because it has been proven that people, especially in the US, are extremely selfish and greedy and don't give a flying f**k about the others? and there are people who can't afford health care because f**king private insurance companies hold a complete dominance over pricing and over who gets approved and who doesn't. I'd like bigger government because I HAVE BEEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES (unlike some "real Americans" who consider traveling going from state to state) and I have seen the difference, and I myself come from a poorer country where people at least are less selfish and greedy. I prefer more government because in America companies do what they want, pay workers sh*t, while they swim in profits, creating a gap that eventually leads to this recession...   Learn a little bit more about people before saying what people want my good Da Chazter. And don't run... Obama doesn't want your gun.... YET. "I'd prefer more government because it has been proven that people, especially in the US, are extremely selfish and greedy and don't give a flying f**k about the others?" How would increasing government help this problem? So you think government should give people more handouts and more money should go to bureaucracies, because the rich mans getting greedy with his power? THAT would not fix the problem. THAT would cause more problems. As if the government isn't big enough, throwing OUR money away, that they STEAL from us to go to these programs. Why should everyone have to pay money for your ideas? if YOU want to pay money to help people get their medicine, then YOU can go right ahead and daily, monthly, or annually donate money for that cause, But why should WE have to pay for those programs? If my next door neighbor is dying of "fluenitous", is it right for the cops to come into my house and point a gun to my head and say that i need to give all or some of my money to help my neighbor? Because that's exactly what the government does to aid all its little shenanigans. AND YOU WANT A BIGGER GOVERNMENT, AND MORE BUREAUCRACIES, AND MORE TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Social benefits =/= handouts. Unless they're handled badly. Admittedly, you always get a few people leeching off the system, but those seem to me as much to be  selfish and relatively well off people who shouldn't be on the program in question as people who are on it and not doing anything about it.

2. The government is elected and supported by the people, aye? Hence, it's not theft, it's represented taxation, which is crucial to being out of anarchy. When you have anarchy, you don't have any rights, because none of your rights are guaranteed or protected except in as much as you have the personal power to do so. I.e. weak people have then less rights than the strong, and it's questionable whether even the strongest truly have rights rather than just power.

Hence, more government actually can = more rights. The trend is to include more obligations as well. Having rights is crucial to having freedom.

If my next door neighbor is dying of "fluenitous", is it right for the cops to come into my house and point a gun to my head and say that i need to give all or some of my money to help my neighbor?

In answer to that, I think so, though you're taking the whole tax thing ridiculously.

The government is elected by your neighbour as well as you, right? If the government has made a pledge to protect everyone's right to healthcare, that's obviously going to come at a cost which is going to have to be footed by the taxpayer in general. You shouldn't be particularly singled out for tax because of wealth, nor should you not be receiving the benefits of that tax money because of wealth. That, I think, is where socialist and communist parties of the last century have been going wrong for a while... obsession with class struggle simply means that they're not a very viable choice for anyone who's in the middle class.

Now, if you're really offended by the idea of elected representatives taxing you, either vote for the ones who say they're not going to and put up with the results if  they lose or else move. Out of interest, the government's role in upkeeping the military is obviously pretty important for your security, would you support them ceasing to do that? (which would downsize government a lot more than just reducing 'bureaucracy')




Edited by TGM: Orb - May 15 2009 at 05:15

The T wrote: hawkcwg wrote: himtroy wrote: I fail to see why anybody would want a government to expand, especially at this large of a stage already.  The bigger the government gets the less freedom you'll have, and the more corrupt it will get, and then you can't do anything about it, because you have a huge government. Because they themselves don't care about other people, and don't want change, or are not educated on the subject enough to make a logical, rational decision on there own.   I'd prefer more government because it has been proven that people, especially in the US, are extremely selfish and greedy and don't give a flying f**k about the others? and there are people who can't afford health care because f**king private insurance companies hold a complete dominance over pricing and over who gets approved and who doesn't. I'd like bigger government because I HAVE BEEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES (unlike some "real Americans" who consider traveling going from state to state) and I have seen the difference, and I myself come from a poorer country where people at least are less selfish and greedy. I prefer more government because in America companies do what they want, pay workers sh*t, while they swim in profits, creating a gap that eventually leads to this recession...   Learn a little bit more about people before saying what people want my good Da Chazter. And don't run... Obama doesn't want your gun.... YET.

"I'd prefer more government because it has been proven that people, especially in the US, are extremely selfish and greedy and don't give a flying f**k about the others?"

How would increasing government help this problem? So you think government should give people more handouts and more money should go to bureaucracies, because the rich mans getting greedy with his power?

THAT would not fix the problem. THAT would cause more problems. As if the government isn't big enough, throwing OUR money away, that they STEAL from us to go to these programs. Why should everyone have to pay money for your ideas? if YOU want to pay money to help people get their medicine, then YOU can go right ahead and daily, monthly, or annually donate money for that cause, But why should WE have to pay for those programs?

If my next door neighbor is dying of "fluenitous", is it right for the cops to come into my house and point a gun to my head and say that i need to give all or some of my money to help my neighbor? Because that's exactly what the government does to aid all its little shenanigans. AND YOU WANT A BIGGER GOVERNMENT, AND MORE BUREAUCRACIES, AND MORE TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





Edited by hawkcwg - May 15 2009 at 00:57

hawkcwg wrote: The T wrote: hawkcwg wrote: I like how was done in ancient times, children would voluntarily meet up and listen to philosophers speak and really take in the subjects they were interested in.   Do you really want American youngster to be even more stupid than they're right now? If schools were made voluntary, most youngster will prefer to try to get some "quick cash money" instead of trying to better themselves and actually making much more money in the future... (as money is the only thing that matters for some).   American high-schools are so atrocious... Now make them voluntary... Damn....   About the question, I want the government out of my life in private issues as abortion (allow it), drugs (legalize them), gay marriage (allow it) and so.... I want government in issues like economy regulation, healthcare system, workers rights, etc....   Gun control is the only so-called private issue where I want the government to step in and impose it. Actually, it's not private: it c eases to be private when you can use your gun to kill... I agree with you on your point about the original question, but not on the school subject. As I previously answered. I think that you have little faith in the people that actually want to learn. Why force people into a jail for 6 hours a day, in a social caste system, wasting away their childhood? If kids want to get into the real world let em. And someone responded that children going to school is a way that keeps them out of trouble, well thats not true at all, because the ones that are going to get some "cash-money" are the ones that are already skipping class, and the ones that want to screw up there future, why should there be a school system to babysit them? Another waste of tax money if you ask me.

himtroy wrote: I fail to see why anybody would want a government to expand, especially at this large of a stage already.  The bigger the government gets the less freedom you'll have, and the more corrupt it will get, and then you can't do anything about it, becuase you have a huge government.

Agreed.

The T wrote: hawkcwg wrote: I like how was done in ancient times, children would voluntarily meet up and listen to philosophers speak and really take in the subjects they were interested in.   Do you really want American youngster to be even more stupid than they're right now? If schools were made voluntary, most youngster will prefer to try to get some "quick cash money" instead of trying to better themselves and actually making much more money in the future... (as money is the only thing that matters for some).   American high-schools are so atrocious... Now make them voluntary... Damn....   About the question, I want the government out of my life in private issues as abortion (allow it), drugs (legalize them), gay marriage (allow it) and so.... I want government in issues like economy regulation, healthcare system, workers rights, etc....   Gun control is the only so-called private issue where I want the government to step in and impose it. Actually, it's not private: it c eases to be private when you can use your gun to kill...

I agree with you on your point about the original question, but not on the school subject. As I previously answered. I think that you have little faith in the people that actually want to learn. Why force people into a jail for 6 hours a day, in a social caste system, wasting away their childhood? If kids want to get into the real world let em. And someone responded that children going to school is a way that keeps them out of trouble, well thats not true at all, because the ones that are going to get some "cash-money" are the ones that are already skipping class, and the ones that want to screw up there future, why should there be a school system to babysit them? Another waste of tax money if you ask me.

I fail to see why anybody would want a government to expand, especially at this large of a stage already.  The bigger the government gets the less freedom you'll have, and the more corrupt it will get, and then you can't do anything about it, becuase you have a huge government.

The T wrote: hawkcwg wrote: I like how was done in ancient times, children would voluntarily meet up and listen to philosophers speak and really take in the subjects they were interested in.   Do you really want American youngster to be even more stupid than they're right now? If schools were made voluntary, most youngster will prefer to try to get some "quick cash money" instead of trying to better themselves and actually making much more money in the future... (as money is the only thing that matters for some).   American high-schools are so atrocious... Now make them voluntary... Damn....   About the question, I want the government out of my life in private issues as abortion (allow it), drugs (legalize them), gay marriage (allow it) and so.... I want government in issues like economy regulation, healthcare system, workers rights, etc....   Gun control is the only so-called private issue where I want the government to step in and impose it. Actually, it's not private: it c eases to be private when you can use your gun to kill...

The T You've got a point!

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: Epignosis wrote: Padraic wrote: Brian makes my point really - I wouldn't mind supporting government programs of any type if they could be shown to be successful - if there was accountability, a well-defined goal and set of metrics on which to judge the efficacy of said program, and the will to eliminate a program if it isn't working.  However, there's pretty much nothing like this going on in the U.S. Federal government, and hasn't been for a long time. I'm in favor of more power to state and local governments and decreasing the power of the central government - as I believe the founders of this country wished it to be.  Unfortunately that reality has long since died, such that I feel the 10th Amendment has been rendered utterly useless. I can't even trust the US Postal Service anymore.  They've screwed me out of $104.44.  The package I sent was the size of a small refrigerator, and they seem to have lost it.  Just bad luck for you my boy. A dude sent me a guitar via USPS in March, arrived exactly on the day they said it would and without any damage.