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Rocktopus 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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 Posted: March 11 2009 at 03:57 |
 mithrandir wrote:
curious, does anyone ever end up changing their mind due to these type of discussions?
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As long as I (or others) don't end up stupider, I'm pleased. That
said, a lot of the heated discussions here gets people a new
perspective, or atleast a new angle. Many topics has come up more than
once over the years, and its then you notice how attitudes changes. Not
within the week or so a thread is active.
Hey Rogerthat & Debrewguy: Glad we largely agree. Of course none of
us has problems with using literature as a basis for an album or a
song. It can
be a great thing. But Saturnus (and most prog metal I've heard) fails
in their attempt to be "deep" in every way and only tells me that they
are a bunch of pretentious illiterates. When aiming for intellectual
credibility, which is pathetic in the first place, don't go for teenage
emo-literature. Reign in Blood isn't only artistially
more successful, its intellectually superiour to both Saturnus and
Coelho without even trying. (I've started to think of that album as a
30 min. long, extremely intense suite more than ten seperate songs.
That's how they perform it the two times I've seen them live, you know
like Suppers Ready)
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: March 11 2009 at 03:38 |
^I tend to think no "Rock band* is ever going to match the compositional complexity of a lot of classical music, particularly from the Romantic period onwards, which from then on some frighteningly complex music has been composed in classic music. Fortunately, good music (IMO) doesn't equal compositional complexity, sheer technique or the most dazzling improvisation, so in that case, Metal can still freaking rule 
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: March 11 2009 at 03:26 |
debrewguy wrote:
Some bands seem to think that using some esoteric piece of literature as the basis or starting point of their musical work is enough to give it some "artistic" merit. And too often, they come up short on matching the quality of their source of inspiration.
If you're able to base a concept album on Kierkeregard, great. But only if you can make it come out as good as the author. Otherwise, you might as well write about the similarities shared by oranges & orangutans.
The end result is what's important, not the high minded concept, or inspiration.
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You have a point there ... although I must say that it hardly applies to metal in particular. Also, I don't think that if you make a concept album based on (or heavily inspired by) a famous work of literature, your work has to match the level of excellency of that work. IMO you're simply wrong in having this expectation when listening to the music, or in assuming that by choosing these works as an influence or base, the musicians endeavor to match the artistic level. A good example from Metal: Transsiberian Orchestra - Beethoven's Last Night. Plenty of (musical) references to Beethoven there, but they never even attempt to match Beethoven's compositional skills.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 11 2009 at 03:27
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
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Posted: March 11 2009 at 03:06 |
debrewguy wrote:
Some bands seem to think that using some esoteric piece of literature as the basis or starting point of their musical work is enough to give it some "artistic" merit. And too often, they come up short on matching the quality of their source of inspiration.
If you're able to base a concept album on Kierkeregard, great. But only if you can make it come out as good as the author. Otherwise, you might as well write about the similarities shared by oranges & orangutans.
The end result is what's important, not the high minded concept, or inspiration.
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I'm still waiting for someone to make a concept album about Buckaroo Banzai. 
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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mithrandir
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 25 2006
Location: New Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 933
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 23:42 |
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curious, does anyone ever end up changing their mind due to these type of discussions?
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 22:06 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Anirml wrote:
But sometimes growling can be good, Saturnus uses it in a great way imo.
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Oh please. Doom metal based on a Paulo Coelho book. What's next? Sym-phony X or Areyon makes a concept album based on Khalid Gibran's The Prophet? Or maybe Dream Theater could make a self-help album?
Gimme Reign in Blood
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That's a good point Rocky. Some bands seem to think that using some esoteric piece of literature as the basis or starting point of their musical work is enough to give it some "artistic" merit. And too often, they come up short on matching the quality of their source of inspiration. If you're able to base a concept album on Kierkeregard, great. But only if you can make it come out as good as the author. Otherwise, you might as well write about the similarities shared by oranges & orangutans. The end result is what's important, not the high minded concept, or inspiration.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 22:02 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Anirml wrote:
But sometimes growling can be good, Saturnus uses it in a great way imo.
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Oh please. Doom metal based on a Paulo Coelho book. What's next? Sym-phony X or Areyon makes a concept album based on Khalid Gibran's The Prophet? Or maybe Dream Theater could make a self-help album?
Gimme Reign in Blood
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Nah, Symphony X seek higher ambitions... Paradise Lost.   It has a few really good songs. For most metal I don't care about the lyrics, thankfully. Except on the new Dream Theater album. That sh*t rivals Beowulf for sure. [sarcasm] 
Edited by stonebeard - March 10 2009 at 22:03
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:56 |
Back in the '60s, there actually was a concept album based on Gibran's The Prophet. I don't remember who was responsible, but since metal hadn't been invented at that time I'll bet it was one of them really obscure renegade psychedelic bands, or possibly Don Kirschner, or perhaps Kasenetz-Katz . Strictly cheese.
Never mind, looked it up. It was Richard Harris, don't know if it came before or after MacArthur Park.
Edited by jammun - March 10 2009 at 22:02
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 21:32 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Anirml wrote:
But sometimes growling can be good, Saturnus uses it in a great way imo.
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Oh please. Doom metal based on a Paulo Coelho book. What's next? Sym-phony X or Areyon makes a concept album based on Khalid Gibran's The Prophet? Or maybe Dream Theater could make a self-help album?
Gimme Reign in Blood
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Point taken. I really have no problems if a metal band makes an album based on a Paul Coelho book if what you are saying is correct because nobody reads Jules Verne these days, much less Greek literature and philosophy.  If it looks like mundane pseudo-intellectualism, it reflects the dying out of literary habits more than anything. All said, I never get it when some self-professed metalheads turn up their noses at albums like Reign In Blood. That's quintessential metal for me and it does not bother me a whit what people who don't listen to metal might have to say about it, er, the important thing is I like it, is it not? I wonder whether metalheads - at least some of them - are more insecure about what other people make of them and their music than I think or whether there are people who listen to metal but um, hate metal  - some other metal music that is - because of metal's vastness? Don't know the answer, but it's probably both. I don't, for the record, consider RIB as the greatest thrash album ever, it's fairly overrated but when people go on and on about how it's stupid, fast, w***y etc, I just have to say, "Dude, it's THRASH metal, what did you expect anyway, a book about George Orwell?"
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 19:50 |
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Hey himtroy, you need to change your tone and stop insulting people if you want to stay on this site. For instance, don't call people 'retarded'.
Edited by Easy Money - March 10 2009 at 20:06
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 19:28 |
You are like the messenger of death micky
Seriously "himtroy", I've got a few things to say myself:
1. You state that you "hate" certain people. Why should you hate anyone? 2. Retarded metalhead answer? So because we listen to metal that decides how we speak? Judging people by their musical tastes is almost as bad as judging people by skin colour. Of course, nowhere on the same level, but still socially unacceptable, and being a metal fan myself, I was offended by that comment. Do all of us here have long hair, own wizards' hats and where sandals every day because we like prog? No, thought not. 3. You need to cut that aggressive and confrontational attitude of yours buddy if you're going to stay here any longer. As micky said, no doubt you've already been discussed by the admins, and you will probably receive a PM from one of the authorities on this site. This of course is not a threat, but some simple sound advice on how things work on here. I also suggest you edit out your posts to keep this thread alive. It's a good thread.
Edited by The Pessimist - March 10 2009 at 19:29
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 19:01 |
himtroy wrote:
I just want to hear his generic metal head response (easy guys, I didn't generalize the genre! I just spoke of the general). Because to me he is the epitome of the generic retarded metal head. You state any opinion other than his and he immediately comes out and starts giving you crap about it. Look anywhere through this topic and you find him, ranting endlessly about nothing. |
hahaha.... I give this thread an hour... and you... even less time before you have a visitor in your PM box...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 18:57 |
himtroy wrote:
I've never gotten metal. I hate people who say that an entire genre is "bad music" though, it's just ignorant. I don't like it, it doesn't mean others do. But to throw in something, I often times think the heavy music is cool, I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
this is your full post. i just asked a simple question that demands very simple answer. you do like some singers from metal,right? those 2 % , so i was curious about it. and asked,i didn't offend you somehow,
himtroy wrote:
angelmk wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
yeah ? what do you listen most, which vocalists are your favourite ones ?!
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WOW!! ARE YOU OKAY!!? I THINK YOU MIGHT BE FREAKING OUT! If I had come out and said, "this music is ****, the singers are horrible!", I could see where you were coming from. But I clearly stated that I think it's subjective. And do you realise that you just asked me to list my favorite of the singers that I DON'T like? What kind of crazy semantics are you into? Either that or you were talking about over all vocalists, which is irrelevant to compare to since, as I already stated, I wasn't insulting any metal musicians.
And if you're going to quote me, do it with a moderate level of competence and put my entire post up there. It completely changes the cotext of what I said. |
noone accused you of insulting anyone.
himtroy wrote:
I just want to hear his generic metal head response (easy guys, I didn't generalize the genre! I just spoke of the general). Because to me he is the epitome of the generic retarded metal head. You state any opinion other than his and he immediately comes out and starts giving you crap about it. Look anywhere through this topic and you find him, ranting endlessly about nothing. |
man, i respect others opinion, but there were some very interesting opinions here,(i know ,opinion is personal) which i found funny ones so i had to say my view whether you like it or not. i didn't offend anyone with my posts, i will never do, like you did right now. i can't see how you are concerned about my posts, you were not involved in discussion , it's about metal. you obviously don't like it , fine with me,but don't jump with conclusions , since you don't like metal,and you are not metal lover, i think you are not relevant to say whether i was ''crapping on this thread or not'' . it was simple question after all .
Edited by angelmk - March 10 2009 at 18:58
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 18:57 |
angelmk wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I've never gotten metal. I hate people who say that an entire genre is "bad music" though, it's just ignorant. I don't like it, it doesn't mean others do. But to throw in something, I often times think the heavy music is cool, I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
this is your full post. i just asked a simple question that demands very simple answer. you do like some singers from metal,right? those 2 % , so i was curious about it. and asked,i didn't offend you somehow,
himtroy wrote:
angelmk wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
yeah ? what do you listen most, which vocalists are your favourite ones ?!
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WOW!! ARE YOU OKAY!!? I THINK YOU MIGHT BE FREAKING OUT! If I had come out and said, "this music is ****, the singers are horrible!", I could see where you were coming from. But I clearly stated that I think it's subjective. And do you realise that you just asked me to list my favorite of the singers that I DON'T like? What kind of crazy semantics are you into? Either that or you were talking about over all vocalists, which is irrelevant to compare to since, as I already stated, I wasn't insulting any metal musicians.
And if you're going to quote me, do it with a moderate level of competence and put my entire post up there. It completely changes the cotext of what I said. |
noone accused you of insulting anyone.
himtroy wrote:
I just want to hear his generic metal head response (easy guys, I didn't generalize the genre! I just spoke of the general). Because to me he is the epitome of the generic retarded metal head. You state any opinion other than his and he immediately comes out and starts giving you crap about it. Look anywhere through this topic and you find him, ranting endlessly about nothing. |
man, i respect others opinion, but there were some very interesting opinions here,(i know ,opinion is personal) which i found funny ones so i had to say my view whether you like it or not. i didn't offend anyone with my posts, i will never do, like you did right now. i can't see how you are concerned about my posts, you were not involved in discussion , it's about metal. you obviously don't like it , fine with me,but don't jump with conclusions , since you don't like metal,and you are not metal lover, i think you are not relevant to say whether i was ''crapping on this thread or not'' . it was simple question after all . |
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 18:54 |
himtroy wrote:
I've never gotten metal. I hate people who say that an entire genre is "bad music" though, it's just ignorant. I don't like it, it doesn't mean others do. But to throw in something, I often times think the heavy music is cool, I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
this is your full post. i just asked a simple question that demands very simple answer. you do like some singers from metal,right? those 2 % , so i was curious about it. and asked,i didn't offend you somehow,
himtroy wrote:
angelmk wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
yeah ? what do you listen most, which vocalists are your favourite ones ?!
|
WOW!! ARE YOU OKAY!!? I THINK YOU MIGHT BE FREAKING OUT! If I had come out and said, "this music is ****, the singers are horrible!", I could see where you were coming from. But I clearly stated that I think it's subjective. And do you realise that you just asked me to list my favorite of the singers that I DON'T like? What kind of crazy semantics are you into? Either that or you were talking about over all vocalists, which is irrelevant to compare to since, as I already stated, I wasn't insulting any metal musicians.
And if you're going to quote me, do it with a moderate level of competence and put my entire post up there. It completely changes the cotext of what I said. |
noone accused you of insulting anyone.
himtroy wrote:
I just want to hear his generic metal head response (easy guys, I didn't generalize the genre! I just spoke of the general). Because to me he is the epitome of the generic retarded metal head. You state any opinion other than his and he immediately comes out and starts giving you crap about it. Look anywhere through this topic and you find him, ranting endlessly about nothing. |
man, i respect others opinion, but there were some very interesting opinions here,(i know ,opinion is personal) which i found funny ones so i had to say my view whether you like it or not. i didn't offend anyone with my posts, i will never do, like you did right now. i can't see how you are concerned about my posts, you were not involved in discussion , it's about metal. you obviously don't like it , fine with me,but don't jump with conclusions , since you don't like metal,and you are not metal lover, i think you are not relevant to say whether i was ''crapping on this thread or not'' . it was simple question after all .
[/QUOTE]
Edited by angelmk - March 10 2009 at 18:56
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 18:16 |
himtroy wrote:
I've never gotten metal. I hate people who say that an entire genre is "bad music" though, it's just ignorant. I don't like it, it doesn't mean others do. But to throw in something, I often times think the heavy music is cool, I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
this is your full post. i just asked a simple question that demands very simple answer. you do like some singers from metal,right? those 2 % , so i was curious about it. and asked,i didn't offend you somehow,
himtroy wrote:
angelmk wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
yeah ? what do you listen most, which vocalists are your favourite ones ?!
|
WOW!! ARE YOU OKAY!!? I THINK YOU MIGHT BE FREAKING OUT! If I had come out and said, "this music is ****, the singers are horrible!", I could see where you were coming from. But I clearly stated that I think it's subjective. And do you realise that you just asked me to list my favorite of the singers that I DON'T like? What kind of crazy semantics are you into? Either that or you were talking about over all vocalists, which is irrelevant to compare to since, as I already stated, I wasn't insulting any metal musicians.
And if you're going to quote me, do it with a moderate level of competence and put my entire post up there. It completely changes the cotext of what I said. |
noone accused you of insulting anyone.
himtroy wrote:
I just want to hear his generic metal head response (easy guys, I didn't generalize the genre! I just spoke of the general). Because to me he is the epitome of the generic retarded metal head. You state any opinion other than his and he immediately comes out and starts giving you crap about it. Look anywhere through this topic and you find him, ranting endlessly about nothing. |
man, i respect others opinion, but there were some very interesting opinions here,(i know ,opinion is personal) which i found funny ones so i had to say my view whether you like it or not. i didn't offend anyone with my posts, i will never do, like you did right now. i can't see how you are concerned about my posts, you were not involved in discussion , it's about metal. you obviously don't like it , fine with me, so why do you jump into semantics when it is irrelevant. it was simple question after all .
Edited by angelmk - March 10 2009 at 18:22
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 17:41 |
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I just want to hear his generic metal head response (easy guys, I didn't generalize the genre! I just spoke of the general). Because to me he is the epitome of the generic retarded metal head. You state any opinion other than his and he immediately comes out and starts giving you crap about it. Look anywhere through this topic and you find him, ranting endlessly about nothing.
Edited by himtroy - March 10 2009 at 17:41
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65249
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 17:26 |
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hey take it easy, I think he was asking which 2% of vocalists do you like
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 17:23 |
angelmk wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
yeah ? what do you listen most, which vocalists are your favourite ones ?!
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WOW!! ARE YOU OKAY!!? I THINK YOU MIGHT BE FREAKING OUT!
If I had come out and said, "this music is ****, the singers are horrible!", I could see where you were coming from. But I clearly stated that I think it's subjective. And do you realise that you just asked me to list my favorite of the singers that I DON'T like? What kind of crazy semantics are you into? Either that or you were talking about over all vocalists, which is irrelevant to compare to since, as I already stated, I wasn't insulting any metal musicians.
And if you're going to quote me, do it with a moderate level of competence and put my entire post up there. It completely changes the cotext of what I said.
Edited by himtroy - March 10 2009 at 17:24
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: March 10 2009 at 16:55 |
Anirml wrote:
But sometimes growling can be good, Saturnus uses it in a great way imo.
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Oh please. Doom metal based on a Paulo Coelho book. What's next? Sym-phony X or Areyon makes a concept album based on Khalid Gibran's The Prophet? Or maybe Dream Theater could make a self-help album? Gimme Reign in Blood
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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