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Catcher10 
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
 Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:59 |
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I don't know about krautrock, maybe prog related.....Certainly not heavy prog. Lonesome Crow is a fantastic, artistic album......When I first heard Lovedrive, that got me hooked on Scorpions. I then purchased Tokyo Tapes, their first live album. That included "In Search of the Peace of Mind"....mystical performance.....thru research found out it was on the first album. I spent a few months looking for Lonesome Crow at Tower Records (back in the day that's where I found all my import vinyl).
Then I read (internet did not exist...) that Lonesome Crow was released under a different label and title in the US as "Action". Ahhaaa!! Finally found it...the cover has a girl driving a Jeep wearing ski goggles stuck in a sand pit...WHAT????
Anyhow...That album is so psychadelic, art rock, jazzy.....The first few songs Klaus is merely "rapping" and not singing, he sings very little in those first songs.
The title track is an amazing journey of strange sounds, the guitar work of the Schenker brothers is mind boggling......I also think Wolfgang Dziony and Lothar Heimberg do a fantastic job on drums and bass work.
It certainly is Scorpions most ambitious work IMO.....and don't forget the album was actually used as a soundtrack for some German movie, I don't recall the title.
Once Michael left for UFO...Uli Jon Roth joined and the sound and style continued with his amazing orchestral guitar work.....Although its not where Klaus and Rudolf wanted to go....Their ultimate goal was to conquer the USA......So heavy metal guitar based sound is what they shot for, hence all the member changes in those early years....and of course they did along with conquering the rest of the world.
Scorpions changed their sound quite a bit over their career....and I do agree their work up to Taken By Force is some of their best and certainly includes the most progy elements. After that it was heavy metal/hard rock........reason why Lovedrive and Animal Magnetism were big hits in the US, their heavy US touring schedule helped a lot too back in the late 70's.
Anyhow....I struggle with the inclusion of Scorpions to PA......Although I 100% agree the early Scorpions years could be considered.
So please, do yourself a favor and take a listen to Lonesome Crow......its a great album...and its far from the recent albums. The only other song that comes to mind where they came close to that early style was a song called "China White" on the Blackout album.......for that matter the title track "Animal Magnetism"...same vein.
I think it all points to that Scorpions took their sound and changed it quite a bit from begining to where they are now......sounds progressive to me.
Regardless Scorpions
 Cheers everyone!!
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Wiktor Hatif
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
Posted: July 13 2010 at 17:43 |
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exactly, and you can find such artists on PA, example: one album of Jose Cid http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=669 and now look at his full discography: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Cid#Discos_.28selec.C3.A7.C3.A3o.29 exactly ;) I just started a similar case, where the two first albums of the band are progressive, but I guess in my case the progressivity is much more clear  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69166 |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:57 |
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While I have to say that Lonesome Crow on it's own (and possibly Fly To The Rainbow) would fit in this site, I would generally be against their inclusion. But then, I would also be against Zeppelin, The Door, And Sabbath being included as well, but they are here
 Honestly, if prog related is supposed to be non-prog music that might be of interest to prog fans, the Scorpions 70's material (at least) fits that perfectly. |
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2009 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 3968 |
Posted: October 26 2009 at 06:36 |
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It's funny this "When X is here, then Y should be here too. And Y deserves it even more" argument. Have you ever considered why X managed to get here in first place ? If there are less progressive bands than for example Scorpions, why they are here ? From what reason. Anyway, it's like Pearl Jam. Good, legend, but it's not here yet, is it ? Edited by MartyMcFly89 - October 26 2009 at 06:37 |
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"
-Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
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Trianium
Forum Groupie 
Joined: October 03 2009 Location: Moaña - Spain Status: Offline Points: 91 |
Posted: October 19 2009 at 16:37 |
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I think Scorpions should be in Prog Related. In the Seventies they were really an interesant an original band, 'Lonesome Craw' has some Krautrock, Purple, Floyd and Hendrix elements. 'Fly to the Rainbow' and 'In Trance' are pure psychodelic-hard rock and in 'taken by force' songs like 'we'll burn sky' or 'polar nights' are big influence to Progressive metal....ok, in the 80's Scorpions are sh*t...but they were great in the seventies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfn6z6HYZj8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iphAa0PiCbI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnlKXzVw1RA In these songs i found some prog elements. Edited by Trianium - October 19 2009 at 16:42 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:27 |
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This is what I said earlier. One can't hold it against Scorpions that the WORLD knows them on account of Hurricane or Wind of Change because the world also knows Genesis only on account of those songs you mentioned, not Supper's Ready or Musical Box. I think being progheads, the folks here forget that most of the time. The only time I ever got to see a video of Yes on TV, it was of - you guessed it! - Owner of a Lonely Heart. Even with a more popular band like Pink Floyd, it's their decidedly non prog songs like Brick in the wall-2 and WYWH that are popular, not Echoes, not Dogs. I don't hear much raving for Shine On outside the prog fans/die hard Floydians circle either. I am not saying all this automatically goes to make Scorpions's case stronger, just that it is ridiculous to judge them by the output that made them world famous when the same test would fail with many big names of prog. As I have said before, I think Scorpions's case for any category other than PR is tenuous and it is not particularly of interest to me whether they get accepted in that category but as a devoted Scorpions fan, I would still like to do my bit to correct others where they are wrong and clarify misinformed opinions about the band.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:13 |
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I've never seen that category any other way. If those bands were "quite prog", they would be listed in a proper prog genre (Crossover Prog for example). And when they're "of interest" to prog fans, there must be some *relation* to prog in their music. Of course there could also be a relation by band member, but IMO that's not really enough. |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:04 |
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I don't think that high profile is bad per se ... it's more when the high profile parts of the discography are blatantly non prog but they had an obscure progressive phase, which is the case with the Scorpions. On a related note: When I first discovered this website, I didn't even know Genesis as a prog band. I only knew songs like I Can't Dance or Jesus He Knows Me from MTV. Seeing them listed as a prog band seemed odd to me, since I knew many others (Spock's Beard, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, ...) and the styles were so completely different. I guess that many people will have this kind of feeling regarding the Scorpions. You can download Lonesome Crow from eMusic.com (I linked to it in a previous post) ... the album is quite an interesting listen for anyone who's interested in Krautrock or Psychedelic/Space Rock and who's familiar with their later output. Sure, only two members of the original band made it into the 70s, but it were the two most important ones (Rudolf Schenker / Klaus Meine), who always have been the core of the band. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 10:46 |
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I think that Prog Related is starting to show its' intended nature as the place for bands that are not quite prog, but of interest to prog fans (not all, but usually many).
Raff makes a good point about other bands that are in PR. And while there may be some that deserve a reconsideration, it would only add to the workload that currently backlogged. My suggestion - let's leave it open to the community / admin / collabs to come forth if they feel they have compelling NEW arguements to present. I would dare guess that most aren't going to re-visit too many. And of course, if we were wrong, it never hurts to allow our members to share their opinions (or almost never). Again, with the emphasis on NEW info, no re-hashing of old debates. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 06:00 |
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OK, since you've been mentioning Heavy Prog in this thread, I will tell you that I am willing to give the Scorpions' early output a fair evaluation (I know a couple of songs from those albums, no more) as long as my teammates agree with that.
However, having them included in HP would raise the questions of other bands with the same number of prog albums (or even more) who are stuck in Prog Related. I don't like any kind of unfair treatment, but unfortunately I see it more and more. Probably, as Debrewguy said in a previous post, it has to do with a band or artist's profile... The more high-profile they are, the less we are willing to include them in a fully prog subgenre, even if they would fully qualify. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 04:40 |
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The only one of their albums that's prog all the way would be Lonesome Crow. Fly To The Rainbow is sort of like Salisbury, the big title track firmly slotting in prog but the rest more in the nature of hard rock/proto metal. I certainly agree that Scorpions qualifying for even heavy prog is a real struggle but for PR, imo, they have the credentials. All said, their 70s albums are worth listening to for what they are, regardless of how prog or not they are. Jimi Hendrix-inspired guitar jams, punishing metal numbers and gorgeous, tearing ballads, the 70s Scorps had everything one could ask for in an excellent hard rock/heavy metal band from the 70s. I know, I know, I am going to listen to Virgin Killer for the nth time today! |
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Seyo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 08 2004 Location: Bosnia Status: Offline Points: 1320 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 03:52 |
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OK, probably I was wrong to use the term "most creative output". I admit I know Scorpions mostly by their horrible mainstream hit songs of the 80s (including sleezy ballads like Winds of Change of course!) and was under impression that it was their creative and commercial peak.
Now I really want to hear their 70s stuff, in particular the debut. But, again I am very suspicious about them being considered prog band AS A WHOLE. It is again question of definition of "prog genres" and how to fit in.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:43 |
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Me too ! I once read a review that said it sounded like Deep Purple kind of rock ??? |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:37 |
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Ritchie Blackmore would have disagreed with you in a 1982 interview in Kerrang. Rainbow was headlining Reading ( I think), and he found that the Scorpions, among all the bands that played there , were THE one who were beyond the norm for hard rock. This was just before Blackout. So they would have been playing material from Lovedrive & Animal Magnetism (if you listen to the title song, you might reconsider the "straightforward heavy metal" tag), plus a smattering of Uli Roth era songs. Again, the arguement is made that the early career means nothing because they morphed into an intelligent AND radio friendly Hard Rock band. Heck , Wind of Change is no Dust in the Wind. But it is a hell of a great song, with intelligent and well written lyrics that stray far outside the typical "blooze" wordsmithing that overwhelms most metal & hard rock. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Portland OR Status: Offline Points: 352 |
Posted: February 09 2009 at 17:52 |
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True. However, only 2 of the 5 people who played on 'Lonesome Crow' ever played again with the scorpions. They also had a different producer from all their subsequent albums (Conny Plank, member of Guru Guru, Cluster, Os Mundi and producer of many famous krautrock acts), and were on a different label (Brain, which also released over 50 notable prog albums). To this extent they perhaps should not be considered the same band as that which produced the Scorpion's future music. Regardless, I think their first album should be assessed on its own merits.
Edited by listen - February 09 2009 at 17:55 |
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Portland OR Status: Offline Points: 352 |
Posted: February 09 2009 at 17:45 |
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let me know what you think!
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 09 2009 at 09:56 |
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But how exactly is what Scorpions did from the 80s onwards their most creative output either? Maybe someone who is not acquainted with their ENTIRE output would feel so, but any fan of their Roth era will say that the period upto Taken By Force was their most productive period artistically. And it has nothing to do with Roth's presence of abscence, he wasn't on the Lonesome Crow lineup to begin with, they just changed after TBF - whether for better or worse depends on one's preferences. Where I will agree though is that even with Roth, they certainly weren't pure prog by any means but the question then is which category are they to be voted for because for PR, they don't have to be prog, just related to it.
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Seyo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 08 2004 Location: Bosnia Status: Offline Points: 1320 |
Posted: February 09 2009 at 09:35 |
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Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: February 08 2009 at 21:17 |
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Look, we're adding bands with short careers with only a few albums. And among their music, one album features "prog" or "prog-like" songs that total less than half of the number of tunes on said album..
Are they more worthy of inclusion under Heavy Prog or Prog related because of their obscurity ? And if so, let's rename and re-define some categories to "prog-related genre", "due to obscurity sub-genre","with passing references to other beloved kinda prog bands sub-sub-genre". Otherwise, the X is here, why not Y arguement is going to be used even more. Simple ratios of progginess applied to the unknown bands can be easily and deservedly applied to the well known ones. If 2/15 (2 out of every 15 songs) is enough to admit group X, then group Y is in, no matter that X put out 3 LPs, and Y put out 12. And let's face it, the "pure/truly/out & out" one prog album standard would mean more than a few of these obscure inclusions would not pass muster either. The Scorpions until Lovedrive had a decent claim to being "prog related". And the X vs Y logic serves up this truth very well. Forget about Crazy World. Just the same as some pass over some RIO bands that play cartoon music. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 3069 |
Posted: February 08 2009 at 01:12 |
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Man I´ve gotten curious. I think I´m gonna take a listen to that Lonesome Crow album.
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Scorpions for Krautrock or prog related
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UMUR wrote: