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CPicard 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Là, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10841 |
 Posted: October 18 2008 at 11:38 |
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At least, this poll had one interest: to question the extension of the PA databse and, furthermore, the definition of progressive rock (a long sterile question, I know).
When I discovered that Miles Davis, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Blue Öyster Cult, Japan, Church and Steely Dan (my mind just went: !!!), I was... Let's say, "puzzled". Even when knowing these bands were described as "prog related" or "proto-prog", it made me think of an article in a French rock magazine which had an ironic question: does progressive rock start with Moody Blues, Procol Harum, Pink Floyd, the Beatles or Wagner and Debussy? An easy joke? Maybe. Yet, it can be seen as an interrogation on the aesthetics of popular music (especially rock) and its relations with other musical forms from jazz to "savant music". What is the meaning of "progressive rock"? An avant-garde in pop music trying to expand its musical vocabulary? Then how can and/or does pop music widen this vocabulary? By taking influences from other musics (symphonic rock, jazz-rock, fusion with traditional musics) or trying a new music (electronic, free rock, R.I.O., electric chamber music...)? Then, it appears that an encyclopaedia of progressive rock should have some limits. I heard of a dictionnary including Kate Bush and Throbbing Gristle! As for the presence of electronic artists I always saw listed as "Industrial Music" artists, now featured in the database of PA: Maurizio Bianchi, Aube, Lustmord... The next step? Stockhausen, Pierre Henry or Coil? And the same thing can be said about jazz and jazz-rock: Weather Report was rather a straight jazz band to my ears, for an example. So, if Miles Davis is here, PA would have to include Coltrane (for he had a strong influence on some rock musicians) or free jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock (for he worked with rock musicians, like Bill Laswell). And I could go on and on about some possible featuring: Sonic Youth? My Bloody Valentine? AMM, Nihilist Spasm Band??? To conclude: I DO think maybe some entries in the PA database should be erased, for they tend to offer a more and more blurred and confusing "photograph" of what is progressive rock. Of course, it doesn't mean I would make a list of bands to kick off (I won't dare). Yet, for a starter, I really think PA should not keep Miles Davis in its entries. |
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Chris S
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
Posted: October 17 2008 at 21:18 |
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We are looking desperate guys! Now we are talking about who we would kick off.........
I could not resist...DT got my vote.
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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Avantgardehead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006 Location: Dublin, OH, USA Status: Offline Points: 1170 |
Posted: October 17 2008 at 16:34 |
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Metallica without hesitation.
And I didn't know there was so much hate for The Doors... weren't we all talking about expanding proto-prog into the more psychedelic bands just a while ago?! |
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: October 17 2008 at 14:52 |
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I admit ignorance of his 70's music. I've only heard his jazz.
So there you go, after that clarification, I definitely would never get rid of any of these bands!
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: October 16 2008 at 11:21 |
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: October 16 2008 at 00:37 |
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You're wrong. Must be because you haven't heard his 70's music. Why don't everyone of you who keeps saying this, check out some of those albums instead? It would be good for you. |
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 23:14 |
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In my case, not satire. I'd rather get rid of Magma than a band that is THE prog-fan-bringer to PA...
Of the list, all have been brought here for a reason. If you put a gun to my head, I'd pick MILES DAVIS, as he fails to meet the second word of the prog-ROCK name. Edited by The T - October 15 2008 at 23:15 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 36502 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 21:10 |
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I wouldn't kick off any bands, but there are some that I'd rather see in Related (okay, maybe some I'd kick out) -- Death, Nightwish, Epica, Torman Maxt, and Blind Guardian would be contenders as I don't think them Prog (maybe proggy), but as has been said, Progressive Metal is not the same things as Prog (Prog meaning Progressive Rock). Tool I don't think of as Prog, but don't know it that well. Metallica and Iron Maiden don't really sound proggy enough to my ears for the site even in Related. There are others not in metal that I find questionable, but being a non-metal expert I'm actually less comfortable talking about that which I know well. The Beatles -- it's clear to me why they are here in Proto-Prog. All the others I support, and Miles Davis was, for me, the most exciting addition to the site since I arrived. I strongly support it for the Jazz-Rock Fusion category.
That said, I'm really very inclusive, and wouldn't get rid of anything from the site (though some could be re-categorised). In fact, I would like to open this site to much more progressive music, and I wouldn't even limit it to rock or rock-related (mind you, I would want new non-prog but progressive music categories). I'd love to have Coltrane, Stockhausen, and Philip Glass in the archives, and have supported artists such as Laurie Anderson for inclusion. I'd be happy to see The Stranglers here, and have offered support (while not saying it should be here) to P-Funk and Talking Heads. I've also wanted both Cream and Hendrix on the site, so.... I'm inclusive. So I wouldn't get rid of anything, but if you held a gun to my head, well, I could live without Metallica here very happily, but then I can live with Metallica here very happily. And even if it was in Prog Metal I wouldn't be upset. Heck, if people wanted, though I'd strongly disagree, they could put it in Canterbury Scene and I'd still sleep reasonably well at night, and put Iron Maiden in Zeuhl and Tool in Prog-Folk while you're at it (oh, but I actually, good categorisation is important to me, so maybe put Metallica in Progressive Electronic instead). EDIT: I understand that including certain albums by artists may be seen as problematic (be it the Miles Davis albums or later genesis albums, but I support complete discographies strongly -- it can also lead to slippery slope problems when it comes to determining PA worthiness -- we already have enough of that determining which bands should be here, let alone which albums should be represented, and I prefer the full discography because it's useful when you're interested in the artist to go through) Edited by Logan - October 15 2008 at 21:24 |
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splyu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 06 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 316 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 20:52 |
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Well, I do find it a bit funny that the archives include tons of Miles Davis albums that have absolutely zero relation to prog, resulting in pretty much the whole 50s and early 60s section being a one-man MD show where it's clear that prog didn't even exist at the time; but excluding him completely when there's bands like Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever makes even less sense, and the Fusion genre likely wouldn't exist if it wasn't for him. So I'd maybe "get rid" of his pre-Fusion albums if that were possible, but it doesn't seem to be, so I'm all for keeping him as long as it isn't suggested the whole Fusion section should go away (which there might be an argument for; much as I really love Fusion, I'm not actually sure it's a subgenre of prog rock). Keeping the Fusion section but excluding Miles Davis would be laughable.
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febus
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: January 23 2007 Location: Orlando-Usa Status: Offline Points: 4312 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 20:42 |
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Someone is looking for trouble here!!
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008 Location: Ontairo Status: Offline Points: 4119 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 20:34 |
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Tool Heavy Mental Rubbish .....................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Runs away laffing ..................... Jumps into his 70s time machine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ahhhh Bliss |
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 20:19 |
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SOFT MACHINE!...eeek, wrong forum...
I think each of the bands on the list have at least 1 album with Prog elements, and as well said the site says, it's prog-RELATED, not considered Prog bands, just bands of their own genre with Proggy elements. |
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febus
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: January 23 2007 Location: Orlando-Usa Status: Offline Points: 4312 |
Posted: October 15 2008 at 19:58 |
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They're all here now, what can we do??
Sure there are a few names included on PA (and on this list) that make me scratch my head!!!
Fans from these bands will come up with all the right reasons why they should be included on PA, so why argue!!
So no name as safety is a concern when walking PA hallways at night might be hazardous to my health
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 11:39 |
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Given that prog related is just that, I will say The Who. Very not even close to prog for most of their career.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 11:36 |
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To be honest, the only bands I listen as a fan are The Doors, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Miles Davis. Otherwise, strictly concerning preferences, Deep Purple never enchanted me, I don't like Beatles at all and I'm a persona non grata for Metal fans (that should count Sabbath, in some way, probably, too.
About the four I mentioned, The Doors are the closest I perceive, in some way, progressive (or to have played some progressive-notable rock), Led Zep have pioneered or blend a couple of styles, but prog rock isn't among any of those in my book, somewhat the same with The Who, where I see absolutely no reason to just say "Tommy made the genesis of Rock Opera" and call that prog history-making, and Miles Davis meets the issue of 20 years of jazz and stuff before the birth of prog rock itself, otherwise his decisive mark in the jazz-rock/fusion can be honestly pointed out... (I'm surprised David Bowie isn't mentioned: godfather of Art Rock, unfortunately, not the "Art Rock" that's genred regarding (Oh, I shan't comment upon bands that are actually in prog-genres - with the exception of Miles Davis, upon which I just did - if you don't like Dream Theater or Tool, that's neither surprising, but nor is it relevant...) That being said, I wouldn't "get rid of" any of the mentioned, because: 1. that's impossible (if this is a petition to remove some Prog-Related, it's worth zero) 2. that's not the point ("getting rid" is just not my type of a conception, to add...) The Prog-Related section certainly adds new chapters every large period of time, and it has grown beyond initial predictions. It's an exaggerate expansion which I don't like, but there's also little to be done, once steps are taken forward. The main bug is the "paradox of completeness", which sounds sweet when archiving prog rock in its most minute and obscurest ways, but backfires as a curse once you can't select the albums of Non-Prog bands that actually support the idea of "Prog-Relatedness", instead you have to add all the musical galaxy of these controversial bands, those galaxies having, in at least 70-80% case (IMO), other predominant styles than "progressive rock". Edited by Ricochet - October 14 2008 at 11:41 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 11:25 |
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Dream Theater? Are you friggin' kidding me!?!
If we're going down that road then easily Magma. (notice: satire) Edited by stonebeard - October 14 2008 at 11:37 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 11:21 |
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I've never been comfortable with the inclusion of The Beatles, but I really would not get rid of any band.
Every band goes through a robust process before being added. Removing any would be disrespectful to those involved in that process, to those who take the time to add bios and albums, and to all those who then review the albums.
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 07:36 |
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That last one is indeed missing from the list. Each band included here was included for a reason, which makes this poll a bit senseless. Oh well....
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7889 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 06:05 |
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Don't see the reason to get rid of any of these bands.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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martinprog77
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2523 |
Posted: October 14 2008 at 04:46 |
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The Doors
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Nothing can last
there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
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If you could get rid of one?
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Rocktopus wrote: