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Topic ClosedShould Metallica be in the forum?
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Poll Question: Should Metallica be in the forum?
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36 [37.89%]
59 [62.11%]
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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 35762 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:56
The poll is pretty meaningless, for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.  And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum. LOL

One thing I will say is that I tried to listen to both sides, but I think that the communication, understanding, respecting and exploring different viewpoints was lacking at times.  Too often comments get dismissed, ignored, or deflected that don't support one's point of view.  It's a learning process.   The important think now is to respect the decision even if one doesn't agree, and respect those who thought differently.

As for whether or not it's Prog, that is debatable, and I don't expect that debate to end now, but it should at least end here.  I'm glad a decision has been reached -- on to other things.  *Laurie Anderson* cough Wink LOL
LOL

Edited by Logan - September 30 2008 at 18:58
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:44
polls haven't been used here for years anyway since we brought genre-teams online.  If we listened to polls... some very notable  groups wouldn't be here... simply because people don't understand the music... or judge based on labels and tags.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:41
Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

They meant, Iván... we always think that polls are made directed to a real Prog genre and taking this in consideration that's the reason why they are in Related.
 
Exactly. Numbers (polls) are always made for prog-genres. People vote for a band in progressive terms. The band is being added to prog-related.
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:40
great call guys... Clap From one who opposed at first... but listened to what was being said instead of just arguing. 

again... way to go M@X.   Thanks.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:39
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

As always our opinions and the one of the majority mean nothing here.

But what the hell.

Iván

 
I would say Ivan that the majority maybe didn't mean nothing here but opinions did. Just read this thread if you have the time to waste and you'll see that OPINIONS are the ones that have caused this decision, not NUMBERS (they don't have to go together all the time).
 
But what the hell.
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Points: 12288 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:31
They meant, Iván... we always think that polls are made directed to a real Prog genre and taking this in consideration that's the reason why they are in Related.
Guigo

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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:22

As always our opinions and the one of the majority mean nothing here.

But what the hell.

Iván
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:15
ClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
Excellent. I think it's the right decision. Honestly. Now it'll take one or two weeks and I'll have the bio ready and the addition will go through. If anyone wants to collaborate, please contact me! Tongue The bio will clearly have to explain where's the prog-connection with Metallica. And it will do so.
 
Again, Clap
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 17:57
10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 - the votes are in....

The admin team, joined by M@X, have decided that Metallica is indeed not Prog, but with Prog Metal in mind we feel we can justify their inclusion in Prog Related. Most of the arguments for and against as discussed in this thread have been taken into account.
As the 34 pages of this thread prove, this has not been an easy one - these pages were well spent. The key arguments for inclusion will be made part of the band biography to make the bold phrases above clear to all members, collaborators and visitors of the site. And, just maybe, this will fulfil The Doctor's quest for a means to convince Metallica of joining our forum discussions.

Just one thing: we already know that Metallica is not Prog, so let's just skip that discussion. Ying%20Yang
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 17:32

Ok... I've no problems with Zafreth.. Hug And with nobody in general.... Tongue

Please, for the 349873 time, let's wait....  I guess we all said what we had to say... Unless we start repeating ourselves... Tongue
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 17:28
That being said, I suggest you guys make up and hug headbang together. Wink
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Zafreth - please read the text again, then revisit your comment. Teo only indicates that the discussion was on a higher level than most discussions about controversial inclusions, meaning that there was a real discussion based on arguments rather than people insulting each other (and the band in question).

Teo, Iván, please do the same - let's not use page 34 to kill the thread after all.

Ying%20Yang

 
Ok Angelo no problem for me at all, after all it's a MUSICAL discusionHug
 
I always try to follow the rules, but everybody has the right to express their opinion.
 




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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:47
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Maybe I chose the wrong word. What I meant was that this discussion, long (very long) and heated as it may have been, has never descended into insults of confrontation like many other controversial suggestions have. Also, a big amount of this discussion has been purely MUSICAL, which is why I said "higher", even if I could've chosen a better word.

 
I was waiting for your answer, and yes you use a wrong word, because if you read carefully your other comment i understand that HIGHER is a level that mostly senoir members can't reach. 
 
Anyway Zafreth, what is your point? What's the point behind picking on my ill-chosen words?
 
The point is that you have to use the correct words when you going to say or write anything.
 
What do you prove with this?
 
Nothing ,except your bad use of the words.
 
You HAVE BEEN a part of this discussion,
 
Yeah and my opinion stays.
 
so what you're trying here is just make me look bad.
 
NO, that's no true and if you think that you are wrong, and i APOLOGIZE for that.Embarrassed
 
Please let's let this thread be until a decision is made.
 
OK
 
And WHEN that decision is made, if I have to shut up
 
No you not have to shut up you defend good your point to add Metallica and you have the right to express your opinion about that. I 'm not a censor here.
 
and forget about Metallica ever being here, OK, I will. And I hope if the opposite happens, other people, starting with you Zafreth, will help PA carry on in harmony.
 
Harmony always are here, at least in this thread, everybody has the right to express his opinions, at least.

Let's wait.

OK but don't get angryWink it's amusical discusion after allLOL and BTW did you hear the last album of Metallica?




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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:41
Zafreth - please read the text again, then revisit your comment. Teo only indicates that the discussion was on a higher level than most discussions about controversial inclusions, meaning that there was a real discussion based on arguments rather than people insulting each other (and the band in question).

Teo, Iván, please do the same - let's not use page 34 to kill the thread after all.

Ying%20Yang



Edited by Angelo - September 30 2008 at 16:42
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Points: 35762 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:41
The closest I could up come up with an argument against it before was this (from here) ... but this was more of a concern than argument since I don't know the music terribly well, hardly listened in years LOL (it was more against the band as Proto-Metal than a Related to Prog band in a way -- "influence on" vs. "influenced by").

That Metallica was "progressive" (but not Prog) and influential was not in doubt for me.  That it influenced bands like DT I was aware of.  A concern of mine has been that the Prog part of the equation in those Prog Metal bands comes from classic Prog bands such as Yes, whereas Metallica influenced the heavy metal sounds part.  Those heavy metal sounds being fused with progressive rock elements.  If talking influence, did Metallica progress metal more, generally-speaking, or Prog generally-speaking?  Metallica influenced a whole slew of metal bands, some prog, some not. Not that we can consider Metallica for Proto-Prog anyway.

Another problem I have is that it is being compared to non-prog metal bands. As an example, it was doing more complicated stuff than other thrash ((no-prog) bands were doing at the time.  A part of me would rather compare it to what prog bands were doing at the time, and had done before, even if the progressive metal history and progressive rock history are quite different (heck, it's all rock to me).

Anyway, perhaps if I listened to the band's "proggiest," or at least most progressive albums" I might feel differently, but I wouldn't be looking at them historically, I'd be listening to the music based on its own compositional qualities (rather than thinking if this was more progressive than similar bands out there, or if this progressed metal), but if it has sufficient proglike qualities (course it would help if I did know more metal to reference it, but I generally have a decent idea of what is proggy, I think.  Not always... Oh, and I'm also more inclusive than most).

...

 I've read comments about Metallica's techniques influencing bands such as Dream Theater (for instance drums getting out of synch) and don't know how much such stuff is being used to help Metallica's case, but it's not the technique that makes a band prog so much as the structure, as I see it.  That techniqe does not make DT Prog.  Experimentation and innovation are very important to truly progressive music, though.

I wonder if people would still consider, say Master of Puppets, Prog if it came out today?  Poor example perhaps, but I'd still consider In the Court... prog if it came out today, retro prog, but still prog.

Anyway, I do expect that when it comes to influence (say in DT), that classic progressive rock bands were more important to the "Progressive" part of the equation in progressive metal bands than a metal band such as Metallica.  Metallica progressed metal generally more than modern Prog, I'd think.  Time to get MoP and listen for myself to hear how Prog it sounds to me (okay, I have heard it before, but not for quite some years).

................................................

But as the T points out, Prog Metal is not Prog Rock (I'm still rather ignorant about how very different they are, and should be judged,  I think there is a strong intersection of styles and Prog Metal bands were influenced by Progressive Rock).  And Cert states regarding structure (hope I get this right), Metallica employed a similar structure to King Crimson at times (KC was an influence, I suppose?)







Edited by Logan - September 30 2008 at 16:48
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:37

^Maybe I chose the wrong word. What I meant was that this discussion, long (very long) and heated as it may have been, has never descended into insults of confrontation like many other controversial suggestions have. Also, a big amount of this discussion has been purely MUSICAL, which is why I said "higher", even if I could've chosen a better word.

Anyway Zafreth, what is your point? What's the point behind picking on my ill-chosen words? What do you prove with this? You HAVE BEEN a part of this discussion, so what you're trying here is just make me look bad. Please let's let this thread be until a decision is made. And WHEN that decision is made, if I have to shut up and forget about Metallica ever being here, OK, I will. And I hope if the opposite happens, other people, starting with you Zafreth, will help PA carry on in harmony.

Let's wait.

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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:27
Originally posted by The T <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The band WAS rejected for prog-related a LONG time ago. It HAS BEEN rejected for prog-metal now, that's correct. But they HAVE BEEN re-suggested to prog-related after this heated discussion where LOGIC AND ARGUMENTS and not MERE NUMBERS have shown very strong points in favor of their addition. This is NOT just some members wanting to add their favorite bands Please read the whole thread and then maybe that idea would change. If this thread is still open is because the discussion was taken to another level, actually HIGHER (we haven't decent into insults here, in 30 pages, NEVER) than with most prog-related controversial additions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I'd say let's all wait for the decision, whatever it may be. </DIV>[/QUOTE The T
 
 
The band WAS rejected for prog-related a LONG time ago. It HAS BEEN rejected for prog-metal now, that's correct. But they HAVE BEEN re-suggested to prog-related after this heated discussion where LOGIC AND ARGUMENTS and not MERE NUMBERS have shown very strong points in favor of their addition. This is NOT just some members wanting to add their favorite bands Please read the whole thread and then maybe that idea would change. If this thread is still open is because the discussion was taken to another level, actually HIGHER (we haven't decent into insults here, in 30 pages, NEVER) than with most prog-related controversial additions.
 
So I'd say let's all wait for the decision, whatever it may be.
[/QUOTE wrote:

 
HIGHER level??? what did you mean? or we are mere mortals?? kind of discriminating your comments man!
 
HIGHER level??? what did you mean? or we are mere mortals?? kind of discriminating your comments man!




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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Rico if Prog matel bythe vote of all their members want to add Metallica to their genre, we can't do a thing, but they don't want Metallica in Prog Metal, they want it in Prog Related,. the band has altready been REJECTED, there's no point for this.
 
Iván
 
 
The band WAS rejected for prog-related a long time ago. It HAS BEEN rejected for prog-metal now, that's correct. But they HAVE BEEN re-suggested to prog-related after this heated discussion where logic and arguments and not mere numbershave shown very strong points in favor of their addition. This is NOT just some members "wanting to add their favorite bands" Please read the whole thread and then maybe that idea would change. If this thread is still open is because the discussion was taken to another level, actually higher (we haven't decent into insults here, in 30 pages, NEVER) than with most prog-related controversial additions.
 
So I'd say let's all wait for the decision, whatever it may be.
 
EDIT: Sorry about the caps. I'm just copying your style.


Edited by The T - September 30 2008 at 16:30
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 15:06
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

You know.  I just noticed something after weeks of seeing this thread on the recent threads.  The name of this thread is "Should Metallica be in the forum?"  Not "Should Metallica be in the archives?"  You've all been arguing the wrong point.  I for one think having James, Lars, et al. posting on the forum would be great, and could lead to ensuing hilarity.  I for one think they should be in the forum.  The question is, how do we convince them to post here?  Confused


LOL There is a a way to get their legal representative to post here (no need to explain that one, I hope), but I doubt if M@X would appreciate that - and besides, their lawyer isn't a member of Metallica.

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

The poll had little importance since debates heated and, more importantly, arguments were strongly requested in order to make the option count. Besides, all such polls counted even less when it came to a Team having the final word.

 
Rico if Prog matel bythe vote of all their members want to add Metallica to their genre, we can't do a thing, but they don't want Metallica in Prog Metal, they want it in Prog Related,. the band has altready been REJECTED, there's no point for this.
 
Iván


Prog Metal Team rejected Metallica.
I'm not sure if Prog Related Team (aka the Admin Team) rejected Metallica. In fact, that's the point, we're waiting on their vote, which is final, after which all Metallica discussions here (addition discussions, that is) should stop.



Rico is right on this one, Iván, We are aiming for a decision on Metallica for Prog Related, after they were suggested by Teo. We're waiting for all of us to have had a chance to give their opinion, which takes some time while dealing also with other matters.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:45
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

You know.  I just noticed something after weeks of seeing this thread on the recent threads.  The name of this thread is "Should Metallica be in the forum?"  Not "Should Metallica be in the archives?"  You've all been arguing the wrong point.  I for one think having James, Lars, et al. posting on the forum would be great, and could lead to ensuing hilarity.  I for one think they should be in the forum.  The question is, how do we convince them to post here?  Confused


LOL

Your point is correct; as I've said, the topic creator has brought no argument on the table - in fact, I wonder if his intentions were serious or not, cause I could very well open my own topic and just say "I think Jessica Simpson deverses to be here", you couldn't say if it was a joke or something serious, really - anyway, having under 100 posts, the topic creator, I'm sure, didn't even continued to participate strongly in the discussion.

BUT, as you can surely read/observe, several other members participated strongly in the discussion, steering it towards the real issue - which is "addition in archives" -. The "forum" thing was just a fluke or something like that, and was also replied with humor.





Edited by Ricochet - September 30 2008 at 13:47
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