| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
cesar polo 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 23 2007
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 146
|
 Posted: May 09 2008 at 03:18 |
Genesis were at the second half of the seventies much more popular that the other prog bands (except for Pink Floyd and E.L.P.). So, the changes in that band were more influential than the same developments in King Crimson, for example.
Peter Gabriel's departure from Genesis didn't change the symphonic-rock orientation of the band. Steve Hackett did. He was the last prog bastion remaining within the prog bands and at that moment all we prog fans felt that our loved musical style had lost its last battle of the decade  .
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 14:56 |
 Dr. Prog wrote:
I think you are vastly overstating the importance of Relayer, because you have some mancrush for Moraz and for some reason you don't care for Wakeman. We've already established that Gates was mostly all written and composed before Moraz got there, so his contribution to the piece is overstated. There is a middle section 'drum-keyboard battle' that I understand Moraz may have thrown some ideas in, and that is the weakest section of the song. Gates of Delerium is a gem because of the closing Soon song section, which is traditional epic symphonic prog Yes all the way, and again, something which Anderson had already written. Soon returns the song to traditional Yes symphonic prog, and is a natural progression from Tales, not a radical departure. Sound Chaser is very weak, and is an example of why Wakeman left---too much formless noodling without much structure--- a weakness of large parts of Tales he felt.
Now we're having an interesting debate:
I have nothing against Wakeman, I love his music, read my reviews of his solo albums and you will see at least 4 of them with 5 stars. I have no mancrush on Moraz, I recognize his solid technique but I stay with Wakeman compositions.
On the other hand, I talk about Relayer as music, not as band members, Gates of Delerium is a radical change and so Sound Chaser, did it who did it, it's different, I'm not taking the Moraz side, just talking about a determined album.
I don't believe Moraz determined the history of Prog, Wakeman is much more trascendental, but stuill insist that technically I believe Moraz is ahead.
So no radical departure, but a culmination of the same Howe-Anderson ideas they had started on CTTE and then went further with on Tales. Wakeman was able to refocus their efforts and produce an epic Yes album in the tradition of Fragile and CTTE with GFTO, thus rendering Moraz' contribution to almost footnote status.
There we must AGREE TO DISAGREE, I believe Relayer is radically different to anything Yes did before or after, the Jazz influences alone make the difference and I find some Avant sounds, maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't believe.
We'll have to disagree on Lamb, as it was basically a story song album with some instrumental pieces thrown in when Gabriel couldn't come up with all the lyrics. Since it was mostly the vision of one man, and not a true group effort the way Selling England and Trick were, its a flawed masterpiece, which is why some see Gabriel's departure as such a significant event, for better or worse.
The lyrics are one man product, the music is a team effort, but that it's fifferent to anything previous, it's totally ifferent.
But again we acn disagree, that's no problem.
Iván
|
|
|
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 14:43 |
I think you are vastly overstating the importance of Relayer, because you have some mancrush for Moraz and for some reason you don't care for Wakeman. We've already established that Gates was mostly all written and composed before Moraz got there, so his contribution to the piece is overstated. There is a middle section 'drum-keyboard battle' that I understand Moraz may have thrown some ideas in, and that is the weakest section of the song. Gates of Delerium is a gem because of the closing Soon song section, which is traditional epic symphonic prog Yes all the way, and again, something which Anderson had already written. Soon returns the song to traditional Yes symphonic prog, and is a natural progression from Tales, not a radical departure. Sound Chaser is very weak, and is an example of why Wakeman left---too much formless noodling without much structure--- a weakness of large parts of Tales he felt.
So no radical departure, but a culmination of the same Howe-Anderson ideas they had started on CTTE and then went further with on Tales. Wakeman was able to refocus their efforts and produce an epic Yes album in the tradition of Fragile and CTTE with GFTO, thus rendering Moraz' contribution to almost footnote status.
We'll have to disagree on Lamb, as it was basically a story song album with some instrumental pieces thrown in when Gabriel couldn't come up with all the lyrics. Since it was mostly the vision of one man, and not a true group effort the way Selling England and Trick were, its a flawed masterpiece, which is why some see Gabriel's departure as such a significant event, for better or worse.
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 07 2008 at 14:43
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 14:22 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Symphonic could most likely reach the peak, because the formula was exhausted and the changes were too slow (Except in determined moments like the change between SEBTP and The Lamb or TFTO to Relayer, in which the style of a major band dramatically advanced), |
How was Tales from Topographic Oceans to Relayer a major change? Relayer was mostly a continuation of the ideas primarily of Howe and Anderson for long form pieces of music, which is why Wakeman decided to leave----he thought there was too much formless noodling and not enough melody, ie too much padding. Gates of Delerium easily could have fit on Tales. There was no major dramatic change. Yes just became more guitar oriented, as Howe dominated those albums, and the keyboards receded in sonic importance. And Wakeman was right----there was too much formless padding, and they refocused doing what they did best on GFTO.
Well, it's a way of seing it, but I believe there was a great jump between TFTO and Relayer.
Tales is purely Symphonic as the predecesors, it flowed gently (despite the changes) from start to end as a piece in which the changes could be anticipated, any fan of Classic music would probably like it.
Relayer on the other hand has a different structure, faster, more radical, with many Jazz leanings, nothing can be predicted, hardly can be considered a 100% Symphonic it has too many sounds and influences going on, I would had expected soemthing like Relayer probably in King Crimson, but was not the usual work of Yes
For that matter, I don't see a "dramatic advancement" btw Selling and Lamb either. It was a different style of album, being one cohesive concept album, but a continuation of the overall style of the band. If anything, since the Lamb was a retreat away from long extended instrumental music and more song focused, some would argue that it was a step backwards from Selling England.
To understand why the change was sop radical, yopu have to go a couple of steps before.
Trespass, Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot were datk, comple albums, highly atmospheric and dense, that's why many people has problems getting into them (of course there are songs as "For Absent Friend", but that's the eception).
Selling England by the Pound is a much more friendlier album, you can get it even from the cover, it's bucolic, calmed, easy to get into it.
So the logical next logical step in the evolution of the band was a simpler album, but Genesis went back towards something unique in their story, a cohesive and ultra complex conceptual album, with Kafka influences in the story, shorter songs, less atmospheres, but totally unexpected, you could jump from a soft track to a frantic one, it's simply something totally different to what Genesis ever did before.
Even when the song were shorter, it's focused towards the whole concept of Rael and his underground misadventures.
By no mean a concept album is song focussed, because each song is like a chapter from a book named The Lamb Lies Fown on Broadway.
It's so clear that Relayer and The Lamb, are probably the harder albums to get into, becaise of it's complexity.
My 2 cents.
Iván
|
|
|
|
|
Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 14:03 |
|
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:39 |
|
Yep, disco did major damage to not only progressive rock, but rock in general when you saw groups like the Rolling Stones succumbing. Other biggies started tumbling around that time too---Zeppelin, Sabbath, and major down periods for people like Dylan and Neil Young thereafter.
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:27 |
|
oh, and that reminds me, I forgot the most proggy of Rush's albums, although not specifically symphonic, were released in 77 and 78, the ones where they borrowed most from the symphonic stylings of Genesis and Yes.
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:22 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Exactly. Symphonic prog began dying with Tales, and it flamed out fully with Yes/Genesis both going pop. The final proof that it was really, truly dead was King Crimson remerging as a non-prog band with Discipline. |
how was Crimson in the 80s a non prog band?  
Yes and Genesis didn't go primarily "pop" (and Genesis never went fully pop) until well into the 80s, Abacab in 81 and 90125 in 83. That is well after 1976-77.
I don't know where you are pulling your musical history from. Its as if you are just making stuff up as you go along.
|
|
Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:20 |
Try arguing against my next post which is a far better argument.
And Pink Floyd wasn't a symph prog band, so they are irrelevant.
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:19 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Dr. Prog wrote:
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
|
Just becuase there were still releases doesn't mean prog was alive as a part of the national consciousness at the time. |
Going for the One, Wind And Wuthering and Works were all huge sellers for those bands, and I think GFTO hit #1. The resulting tours for all those albums were huge sellouts everywhere, and those bands were at the peak of popularity in 77/78, more than ever before. I was there. I was at those concerts. They were tough tickets.
Plus you had Animals in 1977 from Floyd.
Renaissance's biggest tours were in 77 and 78.
and the cited examples are just the more obvious ones.
So if symphonic prog died in 1976, no one told me or the millions of people buying those albums and going to those concerts. Sometimes having lived through the times means more than some hindsight cold intellectual analysis done 30 years later by those who were not there, and really have no clue. I would say the peak of the style actually was in 1977, and from there it did start falling out of favor as the disco crap started really taking hold.
So to say that stuff wasn't in the public consciousness is simply flat out wrong.
|
|
Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:17 |
|
Exactly. Symphonic prog began dying with Tales, and it flamed out fully with Yes/Genesis both going pop. The final proof that it was really, truly dead was King Crimson remerging as a non-prog band with Discipline.
|
|
VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:15 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
|
Note the "about" and "thereabouts" (a poorly written sentence in retrospect) which in this case means it's not an exact date but a general date that can be +1 or -1 either side; so 1975-1977 was the general decline of symphonic prog and the death of it cannot be specified accurately to a date, let alone a specific year. If I said ""pure" symphonic prog did die, in 1976", then you'd be correct in questioning it. Besides, there's always going to be exceptions. 
|
|
|
|
Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:06 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
|
Just becuase there were still releases doesn't mean prog was alive as a part of the national consciousness at the time.
|
|
Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:06 |
Nah, Gates of Delerium is far too good to be on an album as meh as Tales.
| For that matter, I don't see a "dramatic advancement" btw Selling and Lamb either. It was a different style of album, being one cohesive concept album, but a continuation of the overall style of the band. If anything, since the Lamb was a retreat away from long extended instrumental music and more song focused, some would argue that it was a step backwards from Selling England. |
How is that a step back?
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:05 |
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977 and thereafter
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
Moonmadness-Camel 1976
Spectral Mornings---Hackett 1979
UK and Danger Money---1978 and 1979
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 07 2008 at 13:10
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Symphonic could most likely reach the peak, because the formula was exhausted and the changes were too slow (Except in determined moments like the change between SEBTP and The Lamb or TFTO to Relayer, in which the style of a major band dramatically advanced), |
How was Tales from Topographic Oceans to Relayer a major change? Relayer was mostly a continuation of the ideas primarily of Howe and Anderson for long form pieces of music, which is why Wakeman decided to leave----he thought there was too much formless noodling and not enough melody, ie too much padding. Gates of Delerium easily could have fit on Tales. There was no major dramatic change. Yes just became more guitar oriented, as Howe dominated those albums, and the keyboards receded in sonic importance. And Wakeman was right----there was too much formless padding, and they refocused doing what they did best on GFTO.
For that matter, I don't see a "dramatic advancement" btw Selling and Lamb either. It was a different style of album, being one cohesive concept album, but a continuation of the overall style of the band. If anything, since the Lamb was a retreat away from long extended instrumental music and more song focused, some would argue that it was a step backwards from Selling England.
|
|
Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:44 |
Zorn's Naked City album would be the first avant-garde album with metal, I believe, back in 1989.
|
|
VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:37 |
|
I changed my post slightly before I read the above.
Where I said "(yes I realise I am inventing something new here)." I have now changed it to read (no wave, post-punk, something else entirely)." as I realised afterwards that Massacre and such bands were not classed as avant-prog back then and were classed as something else (I wasn't around then, so I have no idea what they were lumped-in as).
That's if you class no wave as avant-prog. Some would not. It also depends on the individual band. Pere Ubu and Tuxedo Moon were quite popular at the time and of course, you had the emergence of the noise movement with Sonic Youth a little later as well. Then you also had PiL and Low/Heroes David Bowie, Lou Reed and The Psychedelic Furs.
Yes, you did have the metal avant-garde sound too. I don't know Zorn's output, so I cannot comment on that but there are slightly later 1990s bands like Taal and 4/3 de Trio who fuse metal and all sorts of other genres into one. I'd say Pocket Orchestra were an early pioneer of this future sound too.
|
|
|
|
Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:27 |
The RIO movement practically ended in 1979. There was somewhat of an aftermath though, with the forming of Massacre in around 1980 but there was a bit a of gap until bands like Miriodor and 5uus came along. RIO was a peak yes but it ended in 1979, so the 1980s was not a peak for avant-prog although yes, there were The Residents, Massacre, This Heat, The Camberwell Now and if you include them, Tuxedo Moon, Nurse With Wound, Throbbing Gristle, Renaldo and the Loaf and others (although many don't count them as prog but just experimental anti-music, in a way). You also had the poppier and non-prog side, such as The Honeymoon Killers, The Pale Nudes and Tone Dog. None of these bands were mainstream, although The Honeymoon Killers charted and of course, The Residents were around at the time MTV started, so they got somewhat known by that.
An important this is: bands like Massacre, This Heat and The Camberwell Now all embraced the punk/post-punk movement and took to a different place. This is distinct from the RIO movement of a few years before. I would therefore say this was a new movement that was molded that way due to the times (Thatcherism and Reaganism, strikes and all sorts of other political and non-political stuff) which should be classed not as avant-prog but something else (yes I realise I am inventing something new here).
Ah, but in the immediate aftermath of RIO there emerged the no wave movement. They were two seperate peaks, but within the same general genre and immediately following one another, so avant-garde on the whole was peaking.
Then, in the late eighties, you have the fusing of metal with avant-garde courtesy of John Zorn (who released his best works then) and Mr. Bungle, among others.
The problem with avant-prog is that it isn't nearly as easily defined as symphonic because there's so much more variety. The avant-garde of today is vastly different from the avant-garde of then (whereas the symph prog isn't).
Re-peaking yes but I feel it's never peaked as much as it has currently and that is due to many things. I give credit to The Internet, CDs and of course, Downloading, for he upsurge in popularity of all forms of experimental music. People have been able to discover many old bands and also many new bands have come on the scene. You also have bands breaking to mold, like Battles and the Math Rock of Don Caballero, Ahleuchatistas and Upsilon Acrux. They are taking music and experimentation to newer places and are molding other genres together. There's even a resurgence of symphonic prog, thanks to bands like William Grey.
I never disagreed that avant-garde is higher now than it ever was.
|
|
Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
|
Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:27 |
el böthy wrote:
I will say Lake leaving Crimson, but not so much for the fact that he left a band, but that without that he couldn´t have formed ELP |
Interesting point - Lake leaving Crimson not only led to the creation of ELP, but also facilitated Crimson moving on to the next stage...
Good one 
|
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Developments which changed course of prog history
