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KrakAtack 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 06 2008 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 165 |
 Posted: May 09 2008 at 23:09 |
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Crack The Sky doing Hot Razors
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Philip
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 13 2007 Location: Porto, Portugal Status: Offline Points: 413 |
Posted: May 09 2008 at 17:41 |
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I would say Rush, and in my opinion, Uriah Heep.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65616 |
Posted: May 02 2008 at 22:37 |
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Woo-hoo! I just got the Angel Witch remaster (25th anniversary) and it sounds great.. gone is the distracting muddy bass sound, and the Witch's true power can be heard. The liner notes make clear how hugely influential they were on the Bay Area metal/progmetal scene, though the band simply couldn't compete against the popularity of Maiden, Def Leppard, Motorhead and others
Guitarist/composer Kevin Heybourne reflects; "I still have bloody excellent memories of those times, there was so much energy-- everyone was buzzing." form the notes; 'The band smashed attendance records at the old Marquee Club in Wardour Street, where only AC/DC ever attracted more punters.' "Angel Witch had been name checked by several San Francisco thrash metal bands. The Bay Area bands definitely took ideas from ourselves, Witchfynde and Diamondhead, but they had chances that were denied to us. Metallica had seen other bands get screwed and insisted on a hands-off attitude. It's a luxury I wish we'd had," recalls Heybourne. And so this hugely influential group maintains its legend with this handsome and beautifully remastered debut, and it's time they were given their due not only as a great band, but as true trailblazers of heavy metal of a progressive nature. May their memory live on. Edited by Atavachron - May 02 2008 at 22:38 |
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keith_emerson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2006 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 155 |
Posted: May 02 2008 at 22:17 |
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ELP Barbarian
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: April 26 2008 at 03:56 |
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^Good catch - some of their material reminds me strongly of Queensryche, yet was well before "Operation Mindcrime".
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist Joined: March 01 2006 Location: San Foca, Friûl Status: Offline Points: 5851 |
Posted: April 23 2008 at 05:47 |
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Also WARLORD is a good PM pioneers.
See this from You Tube:
Aaaah, and for who not know Warlord... I must remind you that Mark Zonder (Fates Warning) was the drummer (see it in all video of links) Edited by Mandrakeroot - April 23 2008 at 05:57 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: April 23 2008 at 05:34 |
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Someone mentioned Sir Lord Baltimore earlier in this thread - thought it might be interesting to note their influence on Prog-related bands;
SLB - Lady of Fire; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mALWRFeGcI0 (check the riff around 45 seconds in).
Deep Purple - Woman from Tokyo; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na865z6Xbo4
SLB - Helium Head; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErxAbqsBnFM&feature=related
Iron Maiden - Murders in the Rue Morgue; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q9bn9O-PvA&feature=related
Also, for fun, check these two out;
David Bowie - Andy Warhol; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoPPiDkXO3Y
Metallica - Master of Puppets; (6:20); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-hEyVQDRA
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:20 |
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As I stated above, I think that the "metal" sound really consolidated itself in the 1980s - I'd pinpoint the sound in 3 albums; Black Sabbath's "Heaven and Hell" (a pioneering Prog Metal album to my ears), AC/DC's "Back in Black" and Motorhead's "Ace of Spades". You could look a year earlier to Saxon's "Wheels of Steel", of course, but "Heaven and Hell" is much richer and darker, generally. I don't want to rule out Maiden - but their sound only "metallised" on "Number of the Beast", which was less proggy than it's predecessors.
"Rocka Rolla" (the original UK pressing) has a rich production that I haven't noticed on their later albums until "British Steel" - maybe it's the dodgy pressings I own of those albums, but "Sad Wings..." certainly sounds much rougher than "Rocka Rolla". RR is also in a bit of a league of it's own - the sound isn't pure hard rock, as there's a decided edge, lacking the swing of Deep Purple et al, with more angles - especially in some of the rhythms, like the 5/4 I identified above.
The "Hard Rock" of Priest is in a different ball park to that of almost any band I can think of from that time, and "Exciter" ("Stained Class" - 1978, pre-Maiden) is indisputably thrash - drums apart, and features that nice quasi-classical lick towards the end of the instrumental. It's all in the music - as I said, there's less swing and more swagger, more emphasis on dark lyrical themes, and what appears to be a determined break away from the pentatonic scale (the blues) in solos than is noticeable in their predecessors.
I haven't contributed to the Priest thread because I didn't spot it...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007 Location: SanDiegoTijuana Status: Offline Points: 4373 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:24 |
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 Yeah, somewhere in Asia. Possibly with Howe, Palmer or Wetton |
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heyitsthatguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006 Location: Washington Hgts Status: Offline Points: 10094 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:20 |
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you just double talked.....prog rock was "influenced" by Sgt. Peppers, it wasn't "prog rock" as we know it today |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:13 |
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Hey Cert, I notice that many of your posts in this thread point back to Priest. I don't believe that you made any contributions to my suggestion of Judas Priest's inclusion on the archives.
Interestingly, Mikenregalia seemed to feel that the first two Priest albums, although progressive, were not metal, and that the metal came afterwards when they were arguably no longer prog. What are your thoughts on that? And my apologies if this has been brought up amongst the circular arguments of the past 4 or 5 pages which I have not yet got around to reading.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:04 |
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^Tricky area, and I'm glad of the dispute;
All the albums you mention have potential, but I ruled them out purely for their hard rock leanings.
Where to draw the line between hard rock and metal?
I haven't really come up with any kind of formulation for that - but it must be possible to draw up a rough list of characteristics.
Given that the NWoBHM was the NEW WAVE of heavy metal, it stands to reason that there was an older wave prior to that.
The main problem is that metal as a genre has kinda solidified its sound since the NW - the 1980s cetainly consolidated the sound into something clea and specific, but before the 1980s it's more difficult.
The other issue is that definitions surrounding Prog Metal itself are even more vague than with Prog Rock. At least with Prog Rock we can be fairly sure of the form comprising sophisticated compositions with a strong improvisational feel.
With Prog Metal, I'm picking bands that show an immediate influence as a whole rather than one or two specific songs that have links. Therefore I reluctantly ruled out Queen, and hesitantly ruled out BOC - "Tyrrany and Mutation" is a close call, but I feel is closer to Heavy Prog than Prog Metal.
For me, Queensryche are a) too late and b) not exactly Prog enough to qualify, and Iron Maiden, while the flag-bearer of the NWoBHM and certainly a direct influence on Prog Metal, still follow Judas Priest, and show direct influence from them. There's also the matter that I find it hard to accept them as "Prog", as, at the time, they were simply Heavy Metal - and I was lucky enough to see them in the early days in small venues such as Bracknell Spots Centre. The last thing anyone called them was Prog - in fact, it was more like a logical extension of punk - although with hindsight it's a bit easier to see how adventurous (I guess that equates to "Prog" in many people's minds) they were.
Why not Priest?
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 11:02 |
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I don't think i entirely agree Certif1ed, according to me what you consider Pionering progressive metal, is actualy proto-progressive metal in my book.
Bands and albums I consider to be proto-progressive metal:
Queen:
Queen (Liar, Modern Times Rock n roll) and Queen II (Father to Son, Ogre Battle, Seven Seas Of Rhye) Blue Öyster Cult
Blue Öyster Cult (transmaniacon MC), Tyranny an Mutation (Hot Rails to Hell) High Tide
Sea Shanty's (Futilist's Lament)
UFO
Phenomenon
Uriah Heep
Demon's and Wizards and Magicians Birthday
Rush
2112 Pionering progressive metal:
according to me progressive metal came after metal came into excistence, which make the pionering bands create the genre in the 80's.
Iron Maiden, Queensrÿche are for me the actual pioneers of progressive metal.
as a side note.
Is progressive metal based on progressive bands that play metal, or is it metal bands that play progressive music?
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:31 |
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...but the first band to put together something resembling prototype Prog Metal is Judas Priest. Not wanting to put down the Rush fans, but "2112" (1976) is hardly a metal album, is it? It's predecessors are strongly rooted in Led Zeppelin/Hard Rock, and while they do exhibit progressive leanings and technical competance, I think more is needed from a genre pioneer.
"Rocka Rolla" (1975), on the other hand, has a real metal pedigree - not least in it's Rodger Bain (Black Sabbath) production, and is decidedly Prog Rock based. It could have been even more so had "Caviar and Meths" retained it's original 14-minute plan.
The riffs are obviously rooted in Purple/Sabbath/Spooky Tooth - and one could argue the case for those bands, but I think that Sabbath show their blues roots, and Purple show their Rock and Roll roots too strongly. Priest are almost cut off from the past - just a few nods and winks via Sabbath influences - with a sound that is metal to the core, and an intent that is clearly Progressive in terms of variation in song sections and "complex" elements, e.g. "One for the Road" is in 5/4.
What makes Priest more metal than MkII Purple - especially "In Rock"? I'm not sure. Without a doubt, "In Rock" is a fertile breeding ground - more so than "Machine Head" (or "Fireball" or "Who...") - but it doesn't say "Prog Metal" to me, in the same way that Sabbath don't say "Prog Metal" until "Heaven and Hell".
The Scorp's early albums also feature lengthy compositions with a sound more akin to metal than rock, and guitar soloing that is emphatically technical. "Lonesome Crow" is, practically speaking, a heavy Kosmiche album, but "Fly To The Rainbow" (1974) is almost there. Schenker brought his technique to UFO, and made the riffs and instrumental sections of their otherwise fairly banal songs something exciting, different - and metallic ("Phenomonon" - 1974).
Summary of key albums;
PROTO
Blue Cheer - Vincebus Eruptum (1967) - turn everything up to 11, and don't worry about technical things, like being able to play. Intent - be very, very loud. Vocals - shouting.
Spooky Tooth - Spooky Two (1968) - proto just about everything heavy. Intent seems to be to provide variety in styles and try new things. Vocals - sillier than Halford or King Diamond sometimes - but only just.
King Crimson - ITCOTCK (1969) - heavy in places - notably the opening track, which is bone-crushing. The rest is all over the place. Progressive beyond any shadow of a doubt, but not a metal album in any way, shape or form, just an album that contains a track that has a metal sound. Vocals (on 21st Century...) - distorted and wierd. Metallic.
Pink Floyd - UmmaGumma (1969) - couldn't let this list pass without a mention of "Careful With That Axe, Eugene". Vocals - impressive screams.
Deep Purple - In Rock (1970) - has all the elements, just doesn't say "metal" to me. Intent seems to be to turn technique up to 11 along with the volume, and try to outdo other band members as the most impressive. Vocals untouchable.
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath (1970) - missing many elements - but the metal is there. Intent - make the music as dark as (in)humanly possible. Interesting techniques arrived at through necessity in building the drama of each song. Vocals Ozzy.
(1971, 2, 3)...
PIONEERS
Scorpions - Fly To The Rainbow (1974) - here we see many of the bits and pieces coming together. Intent is mixed - there's a strong pull towards expressive/progressive material as well as towards accessible songs. Vocals very metal.
UFO - Phenomenon (1974) - the NWoBHM sound, but without the overall energy. Plenty of speed coming from the precise guitar chops, but bass/drums/rhythm lacking metal energy. Vocals highly melodic and reasonably powerful.
Judas Priest - Rocka Rolla (1975) - the link between Prog Rock and Metal. Vocals... oh come on - it's Rob Halford, the Metal God! How much more metal can you get?
Special mention to The Sweet for "Give Us a Wink" (1976) and Rush for "2112" (1976). The Sweet play cellos and string synths on this album, which also features the 7:18 track "Healer", alongside the scarily heavy "Cockroach" and insane "Action". Check out the drums particularly - they remind me a bit of early Iron Maiden in places. 2112 requires no comment
 *Supported* albums welcome to this timeline
 (ie, don't just mention an album, discuss its credentials with helpful pointers to specific tracks that clearly fit in with PM ideals - both Progressive AND metal, so anyone can check it out).Final thought - Does this look a useful/working distinction - between Proto and Pioneer?
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008 Status: Offline Points: 0 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:43 |
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influenced by and pioneered a style are two different things. Nice try.
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heyitsthatguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006 Location: Washington Hgts Status: Offline Points: 10094 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 02:05 |
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but he's not, he's being facetious this lends itself to the argument that the Beatles took influences from other bands who in turn were the 'pioneers' this thread=  |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: April 22 2008 at 01:05 |
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I would go one disc earlier... Revolver...
(And for a few seconds, even Rubber Soul)...
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008 Status: Offline Points: 0 |
Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:34 |
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in your attempt to be facetious, you hit the proverbial nail on head. If you have ever heard Sgt Pepper, you will know how right you actually are.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:17 |
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No... opinions as valid as Cert1fied's have finally agreed: Cro-magnon men, better known as Prog-magnon were the pioneers of metal...
Now about prog rock... maybe we have to dig further... the answer will lie somewhere in Asia...
And DT pioneered prog-metal... so I agree with the original post
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4079 |
Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:25 |
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I guess for all practical purposes, this thread has been beaten to death. So we all agree that Rush is the lone pioneer of Progressive Metal? This would mean also that the Beatles are the pioneers of Prog Rock.
Thread closed.....
:P
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Progressive Metal Pioneers?
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rushfan4 wrote: