Rate yourself! (Prog elitism)

9, Im really an elitist, i cant stand other music styles, but, i can consider some songs of different bands, only that, then prog rock

Heck I don't know, 6?

Three. Maybe 2. about 98% of everything I listen to these days is prog, but I only got into it like a year ago (not even quite that), and though I have definitely become the expert among my peers I'm nothing compared to what I'll be in thirty years, I'm sure of it. By then, when I have just about every progressive album of the 1000s I'll ever want and now them inside and out and have written progressive music myself and don't consider anything music besides prog, THEN maybe I can consider myself an elitist. As of one year with Rush, Yes, Dream Theater, Gentle Giant, King Crimson and most of the other big names, I'm just a newbie as far as I'm concerned.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: jimmy_row wrote:   You may call it elitist, I call it an underground movement...but even at its' peak, progressive rock was a very popular movement - Yes, Tull, Pink Floyd, and ELP could easily claim a level of popularity on par with Led Zeppelin, The Who, and The Rolling Stones.    No Jimmy, I was there and Prog was always for a minority exzcept Pink Floyd, never a Ptreog band was at the leve,l of Zep, The Who and muxch less in the level of opularity of the The Rolling Stones.   Genesis made the farewell tour of The Lamb, their peak of creativity in halve empty auditoriums, they even had to cancell the Gabroiel frewell concert due toi lackl of interest.   The xase was similar with most Prog artists.   From what I can make, prog was accesable to a wide audience and doens't neccesarily require high intelligence to understand.  I don't think that most people listen to music as a fashion or to dance...many do of course, but then remember all the enthusiasts of classical, folk, blues, jazz, etc, it's just that sometimes we notice the "hipsters" more because they're all over the media.   But they are the vast majority,m Folk, Jazz and even Blues are elitist genres also, in lesser degree that Prog but they also are.   ...and I don't know much about music theory, and I'm not trying to improve it when I listen to music.  I listen to prog the same way I listen to all other music, so it's not any different for me.  It's more of an outlet for escapism...and perhaps that's where you and I differ.   Well, not all of us have the same priorities, but I'm sure you know how a rhytghm section works, what does a 9/8 means, ask a Britney or N'Sync fan, they won't eben have the slightest idea.     Couldn't you say the same for Rap (I mean the real stuff, not the mainstream junk on MTV)...IMO it's important to understand the background of the artists and the social envrironment that produces the lyric...anything with a story behind it is worth understanding.  All good music demands effort from the audience, that's why you don't hear a lot of it on mainstream radio; and prog isn't the only good music.   Then good music is elitist...point taken.    I tend to aviod pretentious tag on prog because it characterizes a claim to importance that is unwarranted, and I don't think that prog was so ostentatious that the artists thought they were on par with the classical geniuses and such...it was all entertainment.  You don't have to know Mussorgsky to enjoy Pictures at an Exhibition, and ELP probably knew that (not that they cared), they weren't trying to be better than anybody through their music, they were just entertaining.     Read all the definitions of pretentious:   making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : ambitious   synonyms see showy   Prog musicians now their skills and make demanding music, they are ambitious, and that's excellent,  as for the synonym, isn't entering to the stage on a flying piano or using capes, or making a 50,000 images shows in the 70's without computer showy?   Accept it, Prog is pretentious, but most of the artists have a support in their skills.     not if they do it well   Now you're veing pretentious, nobody would do Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor or OPictures at anExhibition better than Bach and Mussorgsky, this kids (they were very young in those years) took the peak of the creativity of the greatest artists and dares to modify it, they did it well, some did a crappy job, but's pretentious to try to do a piece by the "Father of Music" better than him, even if you succeed.     again, I think that you and I look at the p-word a little differently. A pretentious musician/performer would be one that IS mediocre but claims to be much better...probably drives fancy cars, big houses, etc.  Not a good thing IMO.   Yes, I see pretentiousness as the opposit of conformism, a musician must always try to be the best, even if he's arrogant in the process, not that I like arrogance, but at least some have reasons to be arrogant.   Wagner was a racist arrogant, Bach was an arrogant, the Mighty Handful were extremely arrogant and refused to play waltzes because they saw it as second class music...But all of them were genius, we must accept their arrogance as part of their personality and as a component of what makes them great.   Prog doesn't have enemies - there aren't people plotting to "bring it down", there are only people who understand it, like it, know it, or don't know it or like it. I'm not ashamed of it, but it's not the only music I like...very far from it.  And as much as you talk about mainstream music fans, now you want to follow their example?   Again. Rap artists claim they aRE the best in the world, and with indsults agaibnst anybody else, Madonna is catal��ued as the Queen of Pop, young kids say on TV that they want to be like Eminem when they grow up, why can't we admit that we believe Prog is the best genre of music if we do?   I believe it, I won't deny it, and not ashamed.    that doens't sound elitist to me.  You think prog is best FOR YOUR TASTE.  Wouldn't a prog elitist belittle other music with the thought that everyone else should listen to prog because it is best FOR EVERYONE?   Beep..wrong...An elitist would never try to share it's priviledged position with others, the elite in Country Clubs, want to keep their status for a few, they don't want the average Joe running in a shorts with leather shoes and suit socks by the pool, that's not the elitism I'm talking about, we all would like Prog to be more popular....But we must accept Prog is not for everybody, most people won't accept the challenge. most people will take Trespass for example, listen 3 minutes, shout crap and use the CD as a coaster, I hated Trespass at the first listen as I hated Relayer, it took me time, but now they are among my favorites.   That's the kind of effort that only a minority oir an elite if you want,  is willing to do.   Cheers   Iv�n

As Darqdean pointed out, it comes down to our interpretation of the word "elitist"...the possibly negative connotation would be the reason why I avoid it, as well as the word "pretentious": 

darqdean wrote: In his last paragraph Ivan has made a very important distinction between the types of Elitism and I think many here are mixing them up.   Elitism has two meanings - one good and one bad. A person who claims elitism or to be an elitist believes themselves to be in the good definition - everyone who disagrees with elitism objects to the bad definition. A bad elitist would see themselves as being superior because of what they listen to, which infers that not only is their taste superior, but their music is too. A good elitist accepts other peoples music as being of equal worth but is more selective (by their own standards, discerning) in their own tastes.

Let me say one ting, I might be more elitest about certain bands. I will admit that I get impatient with people who think that King Crimson isn't that great, or goes about dissing magma, and yeah, it goes beyond prog, it applies to metal (what do you mean darkthrone sucks, are you mad?), and jazz (don't you diss John Coltranes free jazz) and classical (bach boring? f**k off!). But, I hold no elitism towards the genre. I realize that all genres are compunds of quality and crappy bands, and there is no such thing as an inherantly superior genre, because a genius knows no such boundaries, they will produce staggering works no matter what genre they are in.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: working for free

Check's in the mail.

jimmy_row wrote: 0 or 1 for me, because I view elitism as an extention of artistic preferences to one's personal quest to be better than others:    Like it or not, Prog is for an elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.   So, want it or not, Prog is elitist.   an elitist would be someone who thinks that they have superior taste to the mainstream and that they are of higher intellect due to this heightened awareness or understanding of art/music.    I believe the music I listen is the best FOR MY TASTE, I would be a liar if I said I consider Rap, POP and Disco as good as Prog while I spend most of my free time in a Prog siite have and about 80% of my albums from this genre.   I'm honest, I believe Prog is the best genre for me as a Rap or Pop listener believes the genres they like are the best.   To me, it's just music...no reason to think I'm better than the next guy;   I don't think I'm better, I believe I'm different, but I tell you something, the average Prog listener knows more about music than the average fan of ALMOST any Rock genre, because it demands an effort from the audience, and if you want to really understand Prog, you need to analyze it.   or that the music I get off on is superior to the music you like, simply because I like it - that would be incredibly pretentious and self-important.   Prog is pretentious, that's also a fact, playing Pictures at an Exhibition before an audience of kids who probably never ghheard about Mussorgsky before, is pretentious and it works, Journey to the Centre of the Earth didn't required almost 300 persons on stage, but it sounds better.   How many Symphonic band dare to take the music of the great masters like Bach, Grieg, etc abnd make new arrangements to make it sound better? Isn't it pretentious to alter what a genius did?   Yes it's pretentious and thanks God there's people who want to achieve perfection or at leas be the closer they ca to it, if it wasn't for pretentious musicians, we would sink in mediocre performers who follow what a couple good mainstream musicians did and never take the risk of breaking boundaries.   So what's the problem to admit it?   The worst enemy of Prog is a Prohead, because he is ashamed to say he/she believes the music he/she listens is the best, while all the listeners of the other genres shout how good, cool or great is the music they listen.   Lets be honest with ourselves, it's part of human nature to try to be the best, if we don't really admit Prog is the best genre for us, then we are lying to ourselves and to the rest trying to sound open minded.   That doesn't mean all Prog is good, because there's a lot of crap out there or that only Prog is good, but if you are a Proghead, you believe Prog is the best genre, at least for your taste.   Iván

Well, being a record store owner and a life long prog fan, I get myself a 9. I would have said a 10, but that goes for most TOOL fans. Most (not all) of the ones I know only listen to TOOL and they believe that everything else sucks. So I save 10 for them.