Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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andu

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:08

"That sounds very nice Robert."

Dean

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:04

thank you Andi

What?

andu

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 05:56

Brought to you by the letter D. As usual, Darg with some pretty definitive points. Wink

Dean

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 05:50

Like Raff, I am open minded with regard to music and as part of the Crossover team I evaluate bands that have pop-influences on a daily basis for inclusion into the PA. It is a thin line and we always have to consider the sensibilities of other forum members during this evalation. To that end I believe we generally err on the side of caution and ensure that the prog outweighs the pop, (though some may disagree

). I would recommend the same level of caution here.

Losing established members from this site would be a bad thing for whatever reason, but in this instance it would not be because they are being fickle and registering dislike Phil Collins, but because they did not like the direction in which the PA would appear to be going. At this moment in time there are two "camps" regarding the inclusiveness of the Archive, both have sound reasons for the way they think and ultimately, whatever the final resolution, it will be to the benefit of the site (debate is healthy, it prevents stagnation). However, this particular "issue" is outside that debate and IMO would do more harm than good to both viewpoints.

Similarily I also believe that the image and credibility of the PA would be tarnished by his addition. Not because of him personally, but because the reviews of his albums will not be representative of what the PA is about. No Phil Collins fan is going to like the negative reviews his solo albums will attract, on reading them they will not explore the PA further, they will either jump to his defense or walk away. Nobody comes here looking for a negative review of their favourite artist - yes we take onboard any negative reviews when looking for other albums to buy, but it is the positive ones we use when deciding those purchases. I believe a wave of negative reviews for any artist makes the Archive look bad.

I agree with Scott that many artists turned their back on the Prog tag at a time when it was a dirty word only to protect their careers, others (like Everygrey) simply do not like to be pigeon-holed as it limits their potential audience. But in Phil's case it was different and I do not feel that Iván took those quotes out of context - there is an interview on Phil's own website where he makes similar statements. Even during his tenure as Genesis's drummer, he was activiely involved in simplifying their music, reducing odd time meters to standard signatures (in a TV documentary recently he demonstrated how he converted one of Rutherford's unusual rhythms by adding an extra beat). That said, he did not apply that methodology to Brand X because is vision of BX was as a Jazz-fusion band.

He is here already for his work with Progressive bands and that alone is a worthy achievement.

What?

Cheesecakemouse View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 05:19

Easy Livin wrote:

As I've just mentioned in another thread, I've jsut noticed that PC is already on our list of artists rejected for Prog related.

Bless you people Smile

Easy Livin View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:35

As I've just mentioned in another thread, I've jsut noticed that PC is already on our list of artists rejected for Prog related.

andu

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:30

Ghost Rider wrote:

You all know how open-minded I am in music matters, but this time I feel I have to put my foot down hard. Such an addition would destroy the site in more ways than one. The loss of credibility would be HUGE, and the consequences as regards many established members no less so.

Maybe I wouldn't use the same words, but those are my thoughts too.

Easy Livin View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:25

A general comment; please ensure the debate remains about the music, and does not get personal.

salmacis

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:09

^I wasn't addressing your post anyway, Raffaella. Apologies if you thought I was. I'm certainly not in favour of his inclusion here either, nor AOR bands like Boston that I've seen mentioned lately.

Edited by salmacis - November 16 2007 at 04:28

Raff

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:03

James, I hope you understood my point.... I don't HATE Phil Collins (though I may not find him a particularly nice human being), but I think he has no place here based on purely musical reasons. I don't really care what he said about prog, and I am well aware of the fact other people have said the same things too.

However, I am worried about the effects such an addition would have on the whole fabric of the site. Let's face it, there are lots of members who would like to see genuinely progressive acts added, and see their suggestions refused on the basis that they are 'progressive, but not prog'. What would their reaction be if PC was added, and not, for instance, people like Laurie Anderson? Members, even very hard-working, valid ones, would leave in droves, while I am quite sure the addition would not attract any potential new members.

salmacis

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 03:49

I don't think Phil should be here either and never have done (or Mike And The Mechanics for that matter). I genuinely enjoy 'Face Value' but it's not prog (some nice jazz rock bits on it though). Every album which followed is even further away from it.

But I can't believe the hatred he seems to get here. Yes, he has made some remarks about some bands and tried to distance himself from it. But if that's cause for someone to get such harsh treatment, then some things Steven Wilson has said and some quotes I've seen from Radiohead (many, in fact!) and even Marillion in recent years will classify them for it too. Tony Banks has done it too; I read quotes with him saying that he never saw Genesis as being a progressive rock band but now he explicitly refers to their earlier work as being just that in sentences like 'our earlier progressive stuff'. Basically, I think Genesis went out of their way to distance themselves from bands like ELP who crashed and burned after punk, let's face it. I don't necessarily agree with their attitude but I can understand it.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 03:29

Nope for Collins's solo career.

Is this the same person insisting on Boston's inclusion

???

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Raff

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 03:26

You all know how open-minded I am in music matters, but this time I feel I have to put my foot down hard. Such an addition would destroy the site in more ways than one. The loss of credibility would be HUGE, and the consequences as regards many established members no less so.

Personally, as flexible and understanding as I have always been, I would seriously question remaining on a site on behalf of which I have been working hard for the past two years, which would nonetheless choose such a controversial path. And I'm sure many other collabs would do the same.

As I wrote yesterday in another thread: is it really worth it? Confused

The T

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 02:38

Su su sudio

(I like PC...but even I, who usually favor any, any addition, have to think twice or thrice on this one).

ghost_of_morphy View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 02:25

I can only think of two arguments in favor for adding him.

1. The argument for completeness. If it is the goal of PA to be a complete resources on everything remotely connected to prog, then Phil should be here, as should every other member of a prog band that went on to other things.

2. The argument for enhancing the site's usefulness. Prog afficianados might find some value in information on Phil's career after Genesis and the inevitable stream of one and two star reviews that would result.

Sorry, rf4, but I can't think of any better arguments than that. Those might get him once his music has passed from living memory, but probably not much sooner than that.

Cheesecakemouse View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 01:45

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

I don't know about these such things but I have read similar comments elsewhere. But I have also read comments that these things were taken out of context.

No Rushfan I'm a Genesis fan and have everything they have released until ATTW3 (the last studio album I bought) Duke and Ibnvissible Touch that were gifts (IT is brand new LP sealed for sale

), plus all the DVD's, bootlegs, books and dovcumentaries.

And that's not the worst:

Q: In retrospect, how much did punk rock really affect your life?
Well, I always felt that, hey, this big shake up ain't going to affect us, because there's substance to what we're doing. I never really felt threatened by it. But what I did feel was that it was going to get rid of a lot of that crap that was around.
In a concert of the ABACAB tour asked I believe for Giant Hogweed (not sure about the song) and Collins replied "We dopn't play that crap anymore"
In 1981 on Groenoordhallen Netherlands, Collins insulted the audience who claimed for old material cklhallenging them to meet him after the show, and was booed during a good part of the show.

He spoke a lot of crap.

Iván

My Gosh that man is pure evil!! Dead

Edited by Cheesecakemouse - November 16 2007 at 01:49

Teh_Slippermenz View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:39

NO, NO, AND NO AGAIN.

Sure, the man is brilliant as a pop musician (...I liked "Testify", as well as his first two albums....*is shot*) and as a progressive drummer (...and singer....gots to love his performances on "For Absent Friends" and "Squonk"....). But he does NOT belong in the archives. WTF is progressive about "I SEE UR TRUE COLLLLOURS", or "U CAN'T HURRY LURVES", or "SHE SAID 'SIR CAN U HELP ME'", or whatever "Another Day in Paradise" says????????

So he hit a few hi-hats for Brand X and Genesis (we can all thank Phil for The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Selling England by the Pound ever going gold America, fellow proggers...) and Brian Eno and everybody who has ever existed. That's great, love the work, but that doesn't justify an inclusion in the archives.

(Peter Gabriel's presence, on the other hand, is justifiable: he never did abandon his progressive roots, AKA "Peter Gabriel III" and "So". "Mercy Street" is not your typical 80s garbage.....)

Edited by Teh_Slippermenz - November 16 2007 at 00:42

rushfan4

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:16

Thank you everyone for your comments and keeping this debate civil. I must call it a night. I certainly hope that you don't revoke my membership while I am gone. Also, I have hired Britney Spear's ex-bodyguard for my protection while I sleep, and I think that he might be a Phil Collins fan, although I might need to keep one eye open in case he is a Peter Gabriel fan.

rushfan4

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:04

rushfan4 wrote:

rileydog22 wrote:

What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work. There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion. For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson. Should he be in the Archives?

I forgot to mention that he also appeared on a couple of Peter Gabriel albums and Voyage of the Acolyte with Steve Hackett. But I digress since that doesn't add to the fact that it was session work. As far as inclusion for session work I guess it would depend upon what the session work consisted of. Playing the notes that were presented before him or being told this is what we have, make it work.

In regards to Jack Bruce, if Cream were here as proto-prog (I'm not certain whether they are or not) then I would support Jack Bruce on the premise that he is prog-related or at least proto-prog related.

Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work). Weak argument, but an observation.

Sorry to quote myself but I just re-read Bob's post and the comment that a member of a proto-prog artist would not be included. So in that case I would not include Jack Bruce. And at least at this point, I did look and Cream is not here as proto-prog, so all and all I would say no.

Atavachron View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:00

a great post from Bob, and I fully agree, I also wouldn't be surprised if Collins is eventually added.. but he simply doesn't fit the definition of ProgRelated as it currently stands

Edited by Atavachron - November 16 2007 at 00:02