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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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 Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:44 |
 Peter wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Where did you hear some nonsense like that ? It sounds fabricated to me. |
 EM, if you (or anyone else with sufficient attention span and reading ability  ) is interested in actually learning more about forest fires, forest management and deadfall, etc, I just found a very informative article from the Canadian Forest Service. (I simply Googled "forest management fires deadfall." ):
It's not too long a read, BTW, but I'd better not just copy a document which, as our good Bob/Easy Livin would point out, is most likely copyrighted. This brief article/fact sheet has lots of links to related topics, too. |
Always interested in good information. Used love to flip through encyclopedias as a kid.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:44 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Very thoughtful post.
Here in the Georgia/Florida area we've been having drought and wildfire problems this season. In other seasons, hurricanes. But to my memory the wildfires around here are a recent problem. I've lived here since '72 and this is the first year smoke from distant wildfires ever saturated the area. They haven't effected houses to the extent that Califonia has been hit.
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Thanks, Slart.
Please do check out the link I just posted. Though it's Canadian, it still applies to your US situation as well (it touches upon pretty much all of the things we've mentioned here), and even mentions aging forests, and a worsening (recent) problem.
Ain't Google & the Web wonderful? It's almost like living in every major library on earth -- minus that cursed, confusing Dewey Decimal system!  |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:32 |
Easy Money wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Where did you hear some nonsense like that ? It sounds fabricated to me. |
EM, if you (or anyone else with sufficient attention span and reading ability ) is interested in actually learning more about forest fires, forest management and deadfall, etc, I just found a very informative article from the Canadian Forest Service. (I simply Googled "forest management fires deadfall." ):
It's not too long a read, BTW, but I'd better not just copy a document which, as our good Bob/Easy Livin would point out, is most likely copyrighted. This brief article/fact sheet has lots of links to related topics, too.
Edited by Peter - October 23 2007 at 21:35
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:30 |
Peter wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Greg W wrote:
rileydog22 wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Isn't that ironic? That move certainly killed more wildlife than it saved. Thanks, enviro-terrorists!
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Well keep in mind, arson is expected. The high winds certainly have more to do with it more than dry rotting wood as well, but still, I'm sure dead wood contributes to the problem at hand. |
I will have to correct you because you're wrong. They are having a drought. Whoever or however the fires started, they are being spread and fed by a phenomena sort of like a dry hurricane, which spreads embers and fire.
If they'd just get rid of all the trees and houses they'd be just fine.
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Not to deny that drought is a major factor in this case, Slart (when we get less snow here in the winter, fire season starts earlier, and is worse), but according to what I've read, dry, dead wood (deadfall) left to accumulate on the forest floor certainly can make these fires more likely, and worse.
Forest fires existed long before we came along (as long as there have been trees, and lightning). But modern man started to "manage" forests, and the old traditions of harvesting fallen wood are suddenly not allowed. It piles up. Native Americans frequently burnt areas to clear land for farming and even easier hunting, but that wise & useful tradition is gone too. (Again, deadfall piles up.) Finally, a MAJOR contributing factor is the way we seek to quickly extinguish ALL fires (remember, they are a natural phenomenon), so instead of periodic, smaller, localized fires (which, BTW, would not only clear out dead wood, but also re-vitalize some areas, creating richer soil via the ash, and a natural habitat for light-loving berry bushes and creatures like deer, which feed on the new growth), we now get less frequent, but HUGE fires.
The authorities pretty much HAVE to put out all fires because, well, we humans insist on moving into the forest (much like we love our riverside properties -- which are all very nice & scenic until the river floods, as it always has).
No easy solution, I'm afraid. There's just too damn many of us living in nature's back yard. |
Very thoughtful post. Here in the Georgia/Florida area we've been having drought and wildfire problems this season. In other seasons, hurricanes. But to my memory the wildfires around here are a recent problem. I've lived here since '72 and this is the first year smoke from distant wildfires ever saturated the area. They haven't affected houses to the extent that Califonia has been hit.
Edited by Slartibartfast - October 23 2007 at 21:52
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:22 |
Easy Money wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Where did you hear some nonsense like that ? It sounds fabricated to me. |
That would be the right wing noise machine.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:19 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Greg W wrote:
rileydog22 wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Isn't that ironic? That move certainly killed more wildlife than it saved. Thanks, enviro-terrorists!
|
Well keep in mind, arson is expected. The high winds certainly have more to do with it more than dry rotting wood as well, but still, I'm sure dead wood contributes to the problem at hand. |
I will have to correct you because you're wrong. They are having a drought. Whoever or however the fires started, they are being spread and fed by a phenomena sort of like a dry hurricane, which spreads embers and fire.
If they'd just get rid of all the trees and houses they'd be just fine.
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Not to deny that drought is a major factor in this case, Slart (when we get less snow here in the winter, fire season starts earlier, and is worse), but according to what I've read, dry, dead wood (deadfall) left to accumulate on the forest floor certainly can make these fires more likely, and worse.
Forest fires existed long before we came along (as long as there have been trees, and lightning). But modern man started to "manage" forests, and the old traditions of harvesting fallen wood are suddenly not allowed. It piles up. Native Americans frequently burnt areas to clear land for farming and even easier hunting, but that wise & useful tradition is gone too. (Again, deadfall piles up.) Finally, a MAJOR contributing factor is the way we seek to quickly extinguish ALL fires (remember, they are a natural phenomenon), so instead of periodic, smaller, localized fires (which, BTW, would not only clear out dead wood, but also re-vitalize some areas, creating richer soil via the ash, and a natural habitat for light-loving berry bushes and creatures like deer, which feed on the new growth), we now get less frequent, but HUGE fires.
The authorities pretty much HAVE to put out all fires because, well, we humans insist on moving into the forest (much like we love our riverside properties -- which are all very nice & scenic until the river floods, as it always has).
No easy solution, I'm afraid. There's just too damn many of us living in nature's back yard.
Edited by Peter - October 23 2007 at 21:21
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10671
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:14 |
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Where did you hear some nonsense like that ? It sounds fabricated to me.
Edited by Easy Money - October 23 2007 at 21:16
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:53 |
Greg W wrote:
rileydog22 wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Isn't that ironic? That move certainly killed more wildlife than it saved. Thanks, enviro-terrorists!
|
Well keep in mind, arson is expected. The high winds certainly have more to do with it more than dry rotting wood as well, but still, I'm sure dead wood contributes to the problem at hand. |
I will have to correct you because you're wrong. They are having a drought. Whoever or however the fires started, they are being spread and fed by a phenomena sort of like a dry hurricane, which spreads embers and fire. If they'd just get rid of all the trees and houses they'd be just fine.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Arsillus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 26 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7374
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:53 |
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Keep safe man. And I hope your daughter will manage. Props to all of the firefighters. It's really saddening to see it this bad. Southern Cal is home for me. Maybe homes will be somewhat affordable now when this is over.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:51 |
My sincere sympathy, Brian, to you, yours, and all those affected by this terrifying disaster.
We had a forest fire near here this spring, right on the border of a nearby, favourite park with tall pines and lovely lakes for swimming. (It was soon contained, & the park was not hurt, luckily). Riding through the burnt area recently, I could already see signs of re-greening, as mother nature revives.
A couple of summers ago was also bad, with choppers constantly going to and fro overhead like a war zone. One day the neighbourhood filled with smoke. I know how scary and surreal the situation can feel -- and things are much worse in magnitude down there!
I'm not trying to be funny now, but at least there's some comfort in knowing that the same areas won't burn again next year....
Stay safe, and here's hoping the situation improves soon! 
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
|
|
Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:39 |
rileydog22 wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Isn't that ironic? That move certainly killed more wildlife than it saved. Thanks, enviro-terrorists!
|
Well keep in mind, arson is expected. The high winds certainly have more to do with it more than dry rotting wood as well, but still, I'm sure dead wood contributes to the problem at hand.
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:22 |
Greg W wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Isn't that ironic? That move certainly killed more wildlife than it saved. Thanks, enviro-terrorists!
Edited by rileydog22 - October 23 2007 at 20:30
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:13 |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster.
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 15:15 |
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It's really unfortunate that these fires happen so frequently out west, I can only offer my thoughts and wishes to all affected. Let's hope that the brave men and women working to bring the the fires under control can do so succesfully.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 15:02 |
Thanks for the thoughts! Here are some pictures that might help expalin:
A link to the a map of all the fires:
Some pictures (after going to MSN click on the multimedia link) :
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:40 |
Jim Garten wrote:
Brian - I thought you & Dan were in the north of the State; all OK, buddy?  |
Dan lives a little north of Fresno in Merced which is in the central part of the state. I live in Corona about 40 miles from the coast and about 50 miles south east of LA in the southern part. Everything is OK where I am at at least none of these hills have burned. Down in San Diego and up around some of the mountains to the east and just south of the grapevine (hills that surround LA to the north) and by Malibu on the coast is where most of the fires have been. But they effect us all with smoke and ash. Really hoping for the winds to die down soon.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Chris H
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 08 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 8191
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:27 |
That's what I like about Connecticut, it seems we're in a black hole of weather. Nothing extreme ever happens, just the way I like it.
Ya'll stay safe down there.
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Beauty will save the world.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:25 |
We had our own problems with wildfires in the Georgia/Florida area this year. Not nearly as bad by all accounts. Wish you guys the best of luck.
Edited by Slartibartfast - October 23 2007 at 14:29
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:22 |
Brian - I thought you & Dan were in the north of the State; all OK, buddy?
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8238
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Posted: October 23 2007 at 13:55 |
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So very sorry for all southern Californians. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be to be told you have to leave your home because it is going to burn to the ground just a few hours from now. My heart goes out to all of those affected.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Southern California is Burning
