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rushfan4 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66270
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 Posted: October 05 2007 at 17:49 |
Rick Wakeman played keyboards on Sabra Cadabra. Enough said, they are prog related.  Seriously though, I have never really considered Black Sabbath as anything other than a really good heavy metal band but I can see the prog-related point of view from the standpoint that they were somewhat influenced by Yes, and by the amount of influence that they had on many of the prog-metal bands. Grant it, their influence was probably more on the metal side versus the prog side. If Black Sabbath were added as a full-fledged prog band then I think that PA would lose a lot of credibility, but as to the suggestion that they be added as prog-related I don't think that would be the case. At least as long as people get it straight that prog-related does not mean prog.
Again these same battles have been waged over Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.... And the same arguments for and against are repeated each time.
The crazy thing is that bands like Meshuggah, Tool, Opeth, and The Mars Volta are on PA as prog bands because they merged different musical styles and they expanded the musical boundaries. Those characteristics are going to be found in pretty much any description you find about Black Sabbath. And again the arguments meander on. They were progressive with a little "p" not a big "P". "Progressive and rock, but not progressive rock".
To me, Black Sabbath is the closest of these bands to have a sound in common with the prog rock bands of the 70's.
Edited by rushfan4 - October 05 2007 at 17:52
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 17:17 |
 Tony R wrote:
Well I think we can expect a few "controversial"
additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space... 
BTW,
The Webmaster rejected Metallica. It's his site to do with as he
pleases and he has a list of bands he wants to see here. Some have
already been added and there are a more to come.
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I wasn't so into the way things work here hahahah , and what people say..without
saying it...around here....I take that to mean that the webmaster wants
Sabbath added... if so... so be it. If not... then I direct this
to whoever wants to consider Sabbath for this site
It is his site, and the admins site and they can do he wants with it. Include making a mockery of it
.. I'll ask you to do one thing.
Read a book, or consider the book that was put on Progressive
Rock... damn....I believe it was 'Rocking the Classics: English
Progressive Rock and the Counterculture' by Edward Macan.
in his book.... he goes to great pains to explain .. just how different
how groups like Sabbath are from Progressive Rock.. He uses
uses one to to explain what the other was trying NOT to do.
Simply.. I don't care if you add them or not... but if you are
seriously concerned about having not just a comprehensive site... but
an accurate one. Let's history be history rather than if they had
some progressive elements or music.
granted it is only one opinion... but that opinion is in world wide
cirulation and has a hell of a lot more merit than any thing that has
been written in these pages.
My two cents.
Edited by micky - October 05 2007 at 17:18
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:11 |
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I hope to come up with something half-decent in the next few days.... I've looked at the DP bio, and I have to say it would've needed to be expanded anyway. Even if their prog career stopped with "The Mule", they're too important and influential a band to have only a couple of paragraphs as their bio.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20252
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:07 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Thanks for the trust, Bob!  I'll have a look at it ASAP, and see what can be improved upon. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:48 |
Thanks for the trust, Bob! I'll have a look at it ASAP, and see what can be improved upon.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:42 |
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It could certainly do with improving anyway Raf, please feel free to do so!
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Raff
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 12:17 |
Easy Livin wrote:
The DP biography would need to be changed if they were moved, as it currently focuses on their first 3 albums as evidence of their Proto prog credentials. |
If you need to change DP's bio, I would be glad to do it, since I love the band and I am quite familiar with most of their output - unless of course someone else is even keener on doing it!
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 08:32 |
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The DP biography would need to be changed if they were moved, as it currently focuses on their first 3 albums as evidence of their Proto prog credentials.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20252
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Posted: October 05 2007 at 08:20 |
Barla wrote:
Undoubtely, Black Sabbath influenced the whole metal and heavy rock scene, and that includes Heavy Prog and Prog Metal. So, they could be here as Proto Prog.
They're not considered progressive, but the huge influence is obvious!
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from a historical perspective, Sabbath can only be Prog Related. >> first album in 70
I think that the addition of Zeppelin (I was against it) changed a few things perspective-wise on this site.
But from a historical AND musical perpective, it would be wiser to have Purple and The Who changed to Prog Related. I always thought The Who (I would've voted against their inclusion if Zep had not gotten the inclusion before) was absurd in Proto, since Tommy is 69 (as is Crimson's ITCOTCK) and the prog era was 70's and not 60's. As for Purple, it is only logical that their inclusion gets changed to prog related if both Zep and Sabbath are in (and all indications points that they will be in).
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Barla
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 13 2006
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 4309
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:56 |
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Undoubtely, Black Sabbath influenced the whole metal and heavy rock scene, and that includes Heavy Prog and Prog Metal. So, they could be here as Proto Prog.
They're not considered progressive, but the huge influence is obvious!
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:52 |
Tony R wrote:
Well I think we can expect a few "controversial"
additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space...
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I'm quite sure of that hahahhahah
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:42 |
Well I think we can expect a few "controversial" additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space... BTW, The Webmaster rejected Metallica. It's his site to do with as he pleases and he has a list of bands he wants to see here. Some have already been added and there are a more to come.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:35 |
Yukorin wrote:
Simple solution: Lob off the 'prog' from prog-related
Everyones a winner |
been suggested.. and rejected
'Influenced by prog' was suggested .... even with some of
the cadets we have here... I find it hard to mistake that for a prog
sub-genre 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:30 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
The funny thing about this thread is that its
just about unanamous that BS are prog-related to some degree, and I see
barely any hostility about them being here, but rather fear that there
will be hostility, I'll create a poll, to gauge reactions and how
negative it is in the wider community in the archives.
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Raff and I talked about this today...
no one doubts their PR 'qualifications'. As I said before, you can make
a case for any number of groups to be added in PR. I don't think
you need to do a poll.. they've been done time and time
again. As I said last night... the admins and the owner
will make this decision, and if they chose to add them, they will
hopefully deal swiftly with any such hostility... If not..
the site deserves what it gets allowing people to carry on like
that. As I told Raff.. that would indeed be a benefit to
this site.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:01 |
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The funny thing about this thread is that its just about unanamous that BS are prog-related to some degree, and I see barely any hostility about them being here, but rather fear that there will be hostility, I'll create a poll, to gauge reactions and how negative it is in the wider community in the archives.
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Yukorin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2005
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:19 |
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Time Signature
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 20 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 362
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:16 |
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So, it's just "Related" then?
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Yukorin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2005
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:14 |
Simple solution: Lob off the 'prog' from prog-related
Everyones a winner
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Time Signature
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 20 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 362
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:10 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sckxyss wrote:
I agree with what Micky and Melomaniac have said. I wouldn't be bothered if they were added, but the site as a whole would suffer, without much gain. |
Like I suggested earlier, a month long ban on creating threads, posts etc on a controversial inclusion would stop all the trouble, I don't see why politics should be involved here, after all its about music, and it will help people to learn and grow in their appreciation.
If a band is prog or prog-related they should be here.
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You see, Michael, this would be not a bad idea... However, if you think about that, it goes against freedom of expressing one's own opinion, which is essential in every civilised community. The trick would be to be able to express one's opinion without offending other people involved - unfortunately, there are people around who seem to be unable to do so.
To make an example, I can understand some don't agree with Blue Oyster Cult being in prog-related, but there is no need to imply I added them because they were childhood favourites of mine (when I got to know them in my twenties....), as someone did a couple of days ago. I've been listening to prog since the age of 11, and I think I know the difference between a fully prog band, a prog-related one, and a non-prog one.
I left the site for months after that addition because of the unpleasant allegations made by some fellow Collabs - and I was Admin at the time. Though I am perfectly capable of answering people back using their same tone, I choose not to do so - but others have no such reservations.
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I remember getting answered back once ;-)
Anyway, I don't really care which genre BS would be added under, but I think they should be added to the PA given that they were innovative at the time, kind of breaking away from the norms in rock music with their extremely dark and heavy music, and their music was quite progressive in the sense that they blended together a lot of genres (and Peter Gabriel himself has stated that part of the whole progressive thing was to mix genres and see how it worked) and created their own genre on that basis.
Whether they would be added as Heavy Prog, Prog-Related, Prog-Metal or whatever is irrelevant to me, but, as I said, given the, at the time unusual and prog-like, nature of their early music, and their influence on rock/pop music in general, they should be added.
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Time Signature
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 20 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 362
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:53 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Time Signature wrote:
Well, I'd support adding Black Sabbath to the PA. Their first couple of albums were pretty progressive, blending together blues, hard rock, jazz and aspects of folk/medieval music.
I hope that the admin team won't hold up the process just because people might complain on the forums, given how important Black Sabbath have been to rock music in general.
... oh, and there's nothing wrong in being a metal head. If you look at the history of metal, you'll find that it's one of the most ecclectic and protean genres in rock/pop music. |
I wasn't trying to sl*g off metal heads, I was trying to describe myself as an outside observer.
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Okay. No problem.
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