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Sasquamo 
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Joined: September 26 2006
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Points: 828
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 Posted: November 23 2006 at 23:01 |
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The power of pre-conceived notions...
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 1751
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 21:30 |
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By the way I've been listening to Carouselambra on their album In through out the door. Carouslambra is without a doubt prog. So my list has increased to at lleast 12 LZ prog songs.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 21:10 |
 Sasquamo wrote:
My point is that Cheesecakemouse's definition of prog is so vague that all sorts of bands that experiment with different types of music and sounds, and all experimental bands for that matter that any band that has their own unique sound could be called prog. |
No that isn't my definition mine is an eclectic range of styles mixed up to produce something unique. On an interview about Genesis Peter Gabrial defined prog the same way.
This is want makes LZ different from say Metellica, Metellica from as far as my knowledge is concerned has never, to my attention, produced music so elcectic as LZ. LZ isn't just metal it has many other styles mixed in it as I mentioned earlier.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 21:06 |
Sasquamo wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
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By the way how come you call In the Light not prog when can't remember it? I actually has middle eastern music mixed with blues into an epic piece.
Also over the hills and far evolves from a folky piece into a funky jam an them back into a folky piece again, Whole Lotta Love isn't just blues what about that psychedelic part in the middle?
Stairway to heaven is a mixture of folk, celtic music and blues, that evolve throughout
How Many More times is a willie dixon blues song but is rearranged into something unique just like ELP rearranged classical songs. Four Sticks is prog it has odd time signatures and thoe brilliant proggy keyboards.
But there's no point debating it, I have a feeling no matter how much evidence I show in LZ's favour you'll just deny it. You havn't actually backed up why you don't think these songs are not prog.
LZ combined mythology with folk funk blues and heavy rock and the odd change in time signatureto create something unique. Pretty much in line with their prog contemporarys, Its just they took a different root. Their music still takes you on journeys of the mind, its just they're not as complicated as the symphonic and art rock groups; thats why they're in prog related. |
OK, what I'm going to do is make a song all in 4/4. It's going to start off just blues, then it's going to go into some Indian-folk fusion, I'll even throw in some funk, and then there's going to be some psychadelic noises to end the song. Of course, my drummer will be emulating a drum machine throughout the song, and all the melody and solos will be very simple. But according to you it would still be prog, right? I mean look at all these styles I'm using, it doesn't matter how well I pull them off or how complex the music is, right? Cool.
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Have you ever heard some of Can and Neu! ?, also the Beatles basically did that. Not to mention Pink Floyd and Hawkwind are pretty straight forward musically. |
Every time I talk about music being repetitive, people bring up Can and Neu!. Look, I don't consider Krautrock to be true prog, and I don't find Pink Floyd to be a perfect example of prog either. I don't know why you mentioned the Beatles since they have nothing to do with prog. (I don't know any Hawkwind, so I can't really form an opinion, but I do know that there is no way the sample song of them is prog.) In my opinion, if it isn't complex musically it isn't progressive rock, you can't make it just because you're different from the crowd.
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Then in a lot of ways you shouldn't be complaining just about LZ you should start your own thread about how you think prog should just be complicated. I don't think you have really much to add on this thread otherwise. But I am sure you'll run into trouble since most people would disagree with your definition of prog.
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 20:28 |
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 828
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 20:09 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
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By the way how come you call In the Light not prog when can't remember it? I actually has middle eastern music mixed with blues into an epic piece.
Also over the hills and far evolves from a folky piece into a funky jam an them back into a folky piece again, Whole Lotta Love isn't just blues what about that psychedelic part in the middle?
Stairway to heaven is a mixture of folk, celtic music and blues, that evolve throughout
How Many More times is a willie dixon blues song but is rearranged into something unique just like ELP rearranged classical songs. Four Sticks is prog it has odd time signatures and thoe brilliant proggy keyboards.
But there's no point debating it, I have a feeling no matter how much evidence I show in LZ's favour you'll just deny it. You havn't actually backed up why you don't think these songs are not prog.
LZ combined mythology with folk funk blues and heavy rock and the odd change in time signatureto create something unique. Pretty much in line with their prog contemporarys, Its just they took a different root. Their music still takes you on journeys of the mind, its just they're not as complicated as the symphonic and art rock groups; thats why they're in prog related. |
OK, what I'm going to do is make a song all in 4/4. It's going to start off just blues, then it's going to go into some Indian-folk fusion, I'll even throw in some funk, and then there's going to be some psychadelic noises to end the song. Of course, my drummer will be emulating a drum machine throughout the song, and all the melody and solos will be very simple. But according to you it would still be prog, right? I mean look at all these styles I'm using, it doesn't matter how well I pull them off or how complex the music is, right? Cool.
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Have you ever heard some of Can and Neu! ?, also the Beatles basically did that. Not to mention Pink Floyd and Hawkwind are pretty straight forward musically. |
Every time I talk about music being repetitive, people bring up Can and Neu!. Look, I don't consider Krautrock to be true prog, and I don't find Pink Floyd to be a perfect example of prog either. I don't know why you mentioned the Beatles since they have nothing to do with prog. (I don't know any Hawkwind, so I can't really form an opinion, but I do know that there is no way the sample song of them is prog.) In my opinion, if it isn't complex musically it isn't progressive rock, you can't make it just because you're different from the crowd.
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 828
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 20:01 |
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My point is that Cheesecakemouse's definition of prog is so vague that all sorts of bands that experiment with different types of music and sounds, and all experimental bands for that matter that any band that has their own unique sound could be called prog.
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 18:52 |
clarke2001 wrote:
What's your point? |
Something like "I hate Zeppelin" and not much more...
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 18:44 |
Sasquamo wrote:
OK, what I'm going to do is make a song all in 4/4. It's going to start off just blues, then it's going to go into some Indian-folk fusion, I'll even throw in some funk, and then there's going to be some psychadelic noises to end the song. Of course, my drummer will be emulating a drum machine throughout the song, and all the melody and solos will be very simple. But according to you it would still be prog, right? I mean look at all these styles I'm using, it doesn't matter how well I pull them off or how complex the music is, right? Cool.
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The way you described , it could be prog or not-prog. It could be good or bad. It could be boring or interesting, also. It depends of idea and implementation. What's your point?
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tardis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 14378
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 18:18 |
tardis wrote:
Led Zeppelin? Who are they?
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Why hasn't anyone answered my question? I feel so left out. 
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 18:17 |
Sasquamo wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
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By the way how come you call In the Light not prog when can't remember it? I actually has middle eastern music mixed with blues into an epic piece.
Also over the hills and far evolves from a folky piece into a funky jam an them back into a folky piece again, Whole Lotta Love isn't just blues what about that psychedelic part in the middle?
Stairway to heaven is a mixture of folk, celtic music and blues, that evolve throughout
How Many More times is a willie dixon blues song but is rearranged into something unique just like ELP rearranged classical songs. Four Sticks is prog it has odd time signatures and thoe brilliant proggy keyboards.
But there's no point debating it, I have a feeling no matter how much evidence I show in LZ's favour you'll just deny it. You havn't actually backed up why you don't think these songs are not prog.
LZ combined mythology with folk funk blues and heavy rock and the odd change in time signatureto create something unique. Pretty much in line with their prog contemporarys, Its just they took a different root. Their music still takes you on journeys of the mind, its just they're not as complicated as the symphonic and art rock groups; thats why they're in prog related. |
OK, what I'm going to do is make a song all in 4/4. It's going to start off just blues, then it's going to go into some Indian-folk fusion, I'll even throw in some funk, and then there's going to be some psychadelic noises to end the song. Of course, my drummer will be emulating a drum machine throughout the song, and all the melody and solos will be very simple. But according to you it would still be prog, right? I mean look at all these styles I'm using, it doesn't matter how well I pull them off or how complex the music is, right? Cool.
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Have you ever heard some of Can and Neu! ?, also the Beatles basically did that. Not to mention Pink Floyd and Hawkwind are pretty straight forward musically.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - November 23 2006 at 18:18
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 828
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 17:58 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
|
By the way how come you call In the Light not prog when can't remember it? I actually has middle eastern music mixed with blues into an epic piece.
Also over the hills and far evolves from a folky piece into a funky jam an them back into a folky piece again, Whole Lotta Love isn't just blues what about that psychedelic part in the middle?
Stairway to heaven is a mixture of folk, celtic music and blues, that evolve throughout
How Many More times is a willie dixon blues song but is rearranged into something unique just like ELP rearranged classical songs. Four Sticks is prog it has odd time signatures and thoe brilliant proggy keyboards.
But there's no point debating it, I have a feeling no matter how much evidence I show in LZ's favour you'll just deny it. You havn't actually backed up why you don't think these songs are not prog.
LZ combined mythology with folk funk blues and heavy rock and the odd change in time signatureto create something unique. Pretty much in line with their prog contemporarys, Its just they took a different root. Their music still takes you on journeys of the mind, its just they're not as complicated as the symphonic and art rock groups; thats why they're in prog related. |
OK, what I'm going to do is make a song all in 4/4. It's going to start off just blues, then it's going to go into some Indian-folk fusion, I'll even throw in some funk, and then there's going to be some psychadelic noises to end the song. Of course, my drummer will be emulating a drum machine throughout the song, and all the melody and solos will be very simple. But according to you it would still be prog, right? I mean look at all these styles I'm using, it doesn't matter how well I pull them off or how complex the music is, right? Cool.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 17:04 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
|
By the way how come you call In the Light not prog when can't remember it? I actually has middle eastern music mixed with blues into an epic piece.
Also over the hills and far evolves from a folky piece into a funky jam an them back into a folky piece again, Whole Lotta Love isn't just blues what about that psychedelic part in the middle?
Stairway to heaven is a mixture of folk, celtic music and blues, that evolve throughout
How Many More times is a willie dixon blues song but is rearranged into something unique just like ELP rearranged classical songs. Four Sticks is prog it has odd time signatures and thoe brilliant proggy keyboards.
But there's no point debating it, I have a feeling no matter how much evidence I show in LZ's favour you'll just deny it. You havn't actually backed up why you don't think these songs are not prog.
LZ combined mythology with folk funk blues and heavy rock and the odd change in time signatureto create something unique. Pretty much in line with their prog contemporarys, Its just they took a different root. Their music still takes you on journeys of the mind, its just they're not as complicated as the symphonic and art rock groups; thats why they're in prog related.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - November 23 2006 at 17:23
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 16:31 |
Uroboros wrote:
Somebody please explain how Led Zeppelin have influenced the prog movement, cause I'm really confused here. I love their music, but how exactly are they related to a whole different genre? I don't care much about these inclusions, at least knowing they don't affect my understanding of music, but I'm really curious about the judgement sustaining their addition to the site. I'd like some relevant examples of their influence in the work of prog bands. That's all. |
I don't really understand... maybe Yes was influenced a bit by Zep (in the Yes Album particularly, but not really that much)... but the rest is not... JT recorded in a studio nearby LZ's recording studio... they were like neighbours, but apart from some aqualung (which is yet a very vague comparison) very little did LZ influence on Tull's music.... bands like Genesis, Gentle Giant, Weather Report or King Crimson don't share almost any familiarity with LZ (Carmen and Kansas maybe do a bit, but, again, vaguely)... I can't even call them pioneers.... Black Sabbath actually were the Metal pioneers, while Zeppelin just incorporated metal later on...they were primarily a hard rock band in the vein of Cream or Hendrix.
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Jesus Gabriel
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tardis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 14378
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 13:14 |
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Led Zeppelin? Who are they?
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 828
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 13:12 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
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Let's see here, Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Achilles Last Stand are not prog, they're long, but they repeat the same thing over and over until I wonder how it can hold anyone's attention. (don't give me the "krautrock is repetitive" lecture, I know, and I don't like it.) I'll let Dazed and Confused pass because that psychedelic part in the middle, while extremely boring, passes as prog for some I guess.
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Wise arse 
Kashmir is in 7/8 (I think), Stairway progresses constantly (maybe not in odd-metered beats) and Achilles is not as repetitive as you might think.
And in the collazb zone I had given D&C as prog, but was not about to give it away freely.
I reviewed from HOTH until ITTOD and the DVD. So Zep is now legitimized as prog-related.
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Well, I just listened to Kashmir, and, while very repetitive, it is a little more complex than I thought, but is most certainly not in 7/8. The main riff is in 3/4, John Bonham's playing in 4/4. Not that special, but not bad for rock. This could have been interesting, but, just like in Black Dog when John Bonham is presented with interesting time changes, he lames out and becomes a drum machine. A more complex drummer definitely could have made this song more interesting, especially if they switched between 4/4 (doing something interesting with it of course) and 3/4 along with the riff. This would probably sound pretty cool, but they probably would've lost all their fans.
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 12:36 |
clarke2001 wrote:
Personally, I would like to include Bowie, Metallica, Bonzo Dog Band, Cream...and many others...let me explain.
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Yeah! What about the Bonzos! 
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Arrrghus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5296
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 12:06 |
Sasquamo wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Name me ten Zeppelin prog tracks ...
C'm on !!!! Dare ya to......
Yup , Thought so! |
Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Whole Lotta Love >>> Blues , No Quater, Over the hills and far away >> not prog , Four Sticks >> not prog , In the Light >> not prog (i think, can't really remember it, though), Achilles Last Stand, Dazed and Confused, How Many more times >> Willie Dixon blues , the Battle of Evermore,
Thats about 11 I can think of for now although HOH and Physical Graffitti have other prog moments. |
Sorry only six, here!!! You might have forgotten Rain song and one on III, but you will not find 10
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Let's see here, Stairway to Heaven, Kashmir, Achilles Last Stand are not prog, they're long, but they repeat the same thing over and over until I wonder how it can hold anyone's attention. (don't give me the "krautrock is repetitive" lecture, I know, and I don't like it.) I'll let Dazed and Confused pass because that psychedelic part in the middle, while extremely boring, passes as prog for some I guess. |
Achilles Last Stand is not only prog, it's one of the best prog epics ever. If that epic isn't prog, then neither is CttE, Lady Fantasy, or any other epic that pops into mind. It isn't repetitive at all. It has several changes and different parts. The song builds. You shouldn't doubt the progginess of a lot of their songs, but you should doubt their progginess as a band.
I love this band, but they shouldn't be here!
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Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3491
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 12:00 |
So deep purple can be here but not zeppelin? why? caus they have a keyboard player? some one please tell me why Queen and Deep purple is more prog then Zeppelin? 
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mystic fred
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Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
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Posted: November 23 2006 at 11:57 |
AS THE FULL HORROR OF THE INCLUSION LISTING SINKS IN, AND THE LED ZEPPELIN REVIEWS POUR IN FROM ALL FOUR CORNERS OF THE KNOWN WORLD, THE Band Submissions TEAM BRACE THEMSELVES FOR AN AVALANCHE OF PROG-RELATED SUBMISSION SUGGESTIONS...
Edited by mystic fred - November 23 2006 at 11:59
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Led Zeppelin?
