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Topic ClosedBrutal/loud/nasty music that rules.
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Manunkind View Drop Down
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Points: 2373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 14:12

You seem to be contradicting yourself, BaldJean. You say that not being honest is bad, and being honest is even worse. At the same time you admit to Gong's being tongue-in-cheek (therefore dishonest) and think Magma's apparent belief in Kobaia positive (when it seems that this belief hasn't done any good to Christian Vander's personality - maybe Kobaia is a sad and barren place after all? Please correct me if I'm wrong about Christian Vander's alleged unfriendliness and other negative traits.)

Not to forget that good acting is a form of art and an honest headbutt is a broken nose. At the end of a G. G. Allin concert you'd have to scrub all the honesty off yourself with a hard sponge. Honesty doesn't have to be positive and, as such, it is a risky way to measure the quality of an aesthetic work.

 

 

 
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:44
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.


it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view

That is your prerogative ... and as I said, I feel the same way about some Grindcore bands. But I also feel that for example Kaipa, a soft and gentle retro symphonic prog rock band, are pretentious.  Kind of like the other extreme ... always friendly, soft and kind.


I don't know Kaipa. but what you describe is exactly what I feel about Camel, for example


They're MUCH softer than Camel. Roine Stolt was in Kaipa in the mid to late 70s. I've only heard the samples, but it's just not the type of music I like.


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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:44

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I don't know Kaipa. but what you describe is exactly what I feel about Camel, for example

Kaipa are much worse than Camel IMO ... at least their recent albums. I haven't heard those from the 70s, so I can't say anything about them.
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Points: 2373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:39

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I wouldn't call Peter Brötzmann "brutal"

Brutal, aggressive, violent, abrasive, harsh - all these adjectives describe Peter Brotzmann's music pretty well, IMO. 'Emotional' would also be a good word, but it's hardly at odds with the others... 
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:36
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.


it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view

That is your prerogative ... and as I said, I feel the same way about some Grindcore bands. But I also feel that for example Kaipa, a soft and gentle retro symphonic prog rock band, are pretentious.  Kind of like the other extreme ... always friendly, soft and kind.


I don't know Kaipa. but what you describe is exactly what I feel about Camel, for example


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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:29

BTW: Try out Ephel Duath (in particular: their album Painter's Palette) for an excellent example of a progressive Grindcore band. Well, they're post grindcore really ... but in the vocal their origin still shows quite dominantly. In their case I think that it really works.

You don't have the album? Well, create an account with www.emusic.com, install their Download Manager ... and download their album for free as part of the free trial! I created my account a few days ago and I love their selection of music, especially the really weird albums and the tons of live shows.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:18
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.


it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view

That is your prerogative ... and as I said, I feel the same way about some Grindcore bands. But I also feel that for example Kaipa, a soft and gentle retro symphonic prog rock band, are pretentious.  Kind of like the other extreme ... always friendly, soft and kind.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:10
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.


it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view


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Points: 1383 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 13:05
Well, offhand, a song that comes to mind as brutal is Led Zeppelin's "Wanton Song." Listening to that pounding guitar riff feels almost like someone is punching you, a rather brutal activity to be involved in.

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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:57

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:51
a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore


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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:47
Originally posted by bluetailfly bluetailfly wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition.

What do you mean exactly by "brutal" if not heavy, loud, noisy?

aggressive and violent. My english may not be good enough though ...

I know that this thread is more about the Metalcore/Grindcore/Hatecore/etc., but in the context of prog there are many subtle ways to make music brutal ... dark, menacing, etc.
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Points: 1383 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:45

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition.

What do you mean exactly by "brutal" if not heavy, loud, noisy?
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:39
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition.

I agree with you there, Mike, but that is not what the originator of the thread seems to have had in mind. in my opinion "Vital", the live album of Van der Graasf Generator, is one of the most brutal albums of all time; yet somehow I have the feeling the originator of the thread would vehemently shake his head at my opinion


Edited by BaldJean


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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:35
Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 12:17
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that

It's odd ... for most progressive styles it doesn't seem to be a problem that they're really "gentle" all the time. I agree that to some extent interesting music is always full of contrast, but IMO the mood of the music doesn't have to change all the time.


not odd at all. the extreme heaviness is a rather new phenomenon. there used to be a certain limit to noisiness. but for reasons of sensation mongering these limits were pushed and pushed. if the Carcinoma Angels play their music at 190 db and 120 beats per minute, the Coffin Nails have to play theirs at 200 db and 130 beats per minute, ad infinitum, nauseum and absurdum. anything to get into the Guinness book of records. it is this anankastia which I find mildly amusing.
albums that are soft and quiet all the time are best used for meditation or sleeping. I couldn't listen to that kind of music under normal circumstances either. under the influence of psychocactive drugs some quiet music has quite a potential though. nevertheless even most "trippy" music usually has changes of dynamic.
there is something else that should be taken into consideration: even if someone likes it very loud and heavy all the time, his or her ears certainly don't


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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 11:16
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that

It's odd ... for most progressive styles it doesn't seem to be a problem that they're really "gentle" all the time. I agree that to some extent interesting music is always full of contrast, but IMO the mood of the music doesn't have to change all the time.
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Points: 116 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 09:50
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that

Alright well, I'll admit often bands that are "brutal" all the time often don't have a lot of dynamic changes. I would still argue that the music can be very interesting, but as you said earlier, this is most likely a matter of subjective taste.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2006 at 01:19
Originally posted by helofloki helofloki wrote:

Baldjean, it's obvious you've got a skewed view of "brutal" music. I don't really know if you really care how authentic it is, but I'm gonna try and express it anyway.

First of all, Grindcore is basically the ultimately intense manifestation of the punk mentality and is coming from the punk tradition. In this way it is very political and anti-establishment. So if you look strictly at say Brutal Truth's lyrics you find anti-establishment lyrics about things that they were really into at the time and still are even after the band has broken up. As well they took their music very seriously (which isn't necessarily a punk tradition thing I know) but I really want you to understand that these guys are not "pretenders" they're the real deal. And if you think that Brutal Music isn't tongue and cheek you've never heard of Anal c**t.

And finally, I could try all day and give you all sorts of examples why some (of course not all) brutal music has a truly authentic and honest flavor to it. But if you are going to refuse their honesty and authenticity no matter what, let me know I'm wasting my time arguing with you. But seriously you should understand that "brutal" is not really simply something that you can class all this different stuff in. It's a really extensive idea encompassing both honest and somewhat contrived artists. If you don't want to put in the effort to really understand the underpinnings of these styles, I'm totally cool with that. But at the same time that leaves your judgments on the subject fairly worthless.

the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that


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Points: 23 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2006 at 23:38

Atheist, Necrophagist, Death and Opeth are probably my favorite prog/deathmetal bands. I also really dig Suffocation, Vital Remains, Pig destroyer, Napalm Death.... the list is endless. I discovered prog and metal at the same time so I am real big on both.
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