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darren
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 452
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Posted: February 08 2006 at 05:19 |
It seems to me that your writing is probably a lot better than you realize. Create something, record it and don't listen to it for a while. Then you can listen to it and be less self critical. I know with my creations, I write it, store it for a while and apreciate it more over time.
You also have to remember that it does take time to develop your style and get good at it. You'll just have to develop your own way of creating.
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"they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world.
the fools
they locked up the wrong man."
- Leonard Cohen
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RaphaelT
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 1453
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Posted: February 08 2006 at 02:37 |
Follow the way that Goldenavatar described. The most innovative prog band perhaps was Gentle Giant, and its leader Kerry Minnear had a degree in composition.
So try taking musical classes, and on the other hand, study great literature and art - it is easier to create great form if it has some idea about it - especially transforming some recurring themes, representing that ideas, which also was way of composing great progressive songs.
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yet you still have time!
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ken4musiq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 446
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Posted: February 08 2006 at 00:04 |
is there a formula people follow? How is it these people made such great music back in the 70's and 60's, what was it about them!?!>>>
It was part of the times. People fed off each other and were open to new things. Of course, the LSD didn't hurt.
I would suggest getting a teacher.
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Goldenavatar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 147
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 23:39 |
Do not listen to these wierdos who say there is no formula for writing music, they clearly don't know much about music. There are MOST CERTAINLY RULES! Did Bach just sit down and totally make crap up? Well he probably did, but it was a very formulaic approach. Why do you think there are different genres and styles of music? The reason is because there are different rules and formulas for each one. There ARE rules for blues. There ARE rules for Baroque. There ARE rules for Jazz. Anyone who claims that music is obtained by just doing whatever the hell you want is musically illiterate. They may be able to come up with some interesting stuff occassionally but that will be the exception. So if you want to learn to write some music you just need to learn the rules of the style you want to write.
I personally would suggest, if you have not done so, take some college level music theory classes. That helped me tremendously. One thing you will learn is tonal harmony from a classical perspective. Since prog artists are often influenced by classical forms, this would be very beneficial. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Learning the basics of tonal harmony will help when you get to the point when you want to start breaking the rules. You can't break the rules if you don't know the rules. Plus, once you know the rules for writing a 4 voice chorale in the style of Bach, anything you write will sound good. I'm not kidding. 4 voice chorales will then lead to keyboard pieces and then on to your own instruments. When I was taking music theory I would write chorales and have no idea what they would sound like (I have not taken an ear training course yet). Then when I heard them I was always amazed that they sounded so pleasing. All because I followed the rules
One thing I've found in my own experience is that it's much easier for me to write starting with a harmonic basis for the song. When I was a bit more inexperienced I always thought you just come up with a melody in your head and then add to it. That has proven to be much more difficult for me. Now I try to come up with a chordal model first and then add to that.
Also, my teachers always say, "Don't try and be creative," when you are first starting out. Start off doing the very cliche stuff. This will give you a firmer grasp on how harmony works. Plus most works are NOT very complicated harmonically. That includes prog. Most tunes follow very standard harmonic progressions. For example pretty much every jazz tune in the world is based on ii-V7-I chord progressions. Sure there are more things going on, but those are usually ornamental things, not the basis for the work.
Chew on that!
Edited by Goldenavatar
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 23:02 |
But still (I didn't read the entire message that starts this) what you are trying to achieve is something already done (to a boring level). 60's / 70's. That you can simply copy, as so many others did. while you're at it, try to compose some baroque music too. Now, if you serously want to discover something interesting, I highly recommend to use improvisation and digital process.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 22:54 |
I write it using my language: Música. Your Question is very valid, but weird. There is not a way to create something by just following a method. I know that many movies are made using somekind of "template" that works almost al time, but nobody can create a movie like "8 1/2" by following some kind of "instruction's package". You must concentrate, find out if you can do it, and then use method to put some order on your ideas. But if the problem is the idea, I'm sorry, but you are lost. at least until the idea finally reveales to you.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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BePinkTheater
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1381
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 21:35 |
Some people jsut arent good...
But look at great songs, and their writing methods. Dissect the song in everyway, intervals of chordchanges/ time changes/ key changes.. melody vs. harmony, reoccuring themes, changed themes. But none of this is helpufl if you suck to begin wiht..
but who knows...
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I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t.
-Stone Beard
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Lord Qwerty
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 07 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 82
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 20:24 |
The Lost Chord wrote:
I play instruments all day, i am an avid flute, piano and guitar player and i have been playing piano for my whole life and i know music like i know math!
But i cannot seem to create epic melodies, I can write songs easily, but i am never satisified with what comes out at the end...is there a formula people follow? How is it these people made such great music back in the 70's and 60's, what was it about them!?!
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Lord Qwerty's Advice on Art:
There are three factors in art. Time, technique, and talent. To create great art, you require at least two of them. Time alone yields a waste of time. Technique alone yields boredom. Talent alone yields slop. All three strung together yields genius.
Time is by far the easiest asset to acquire. You need to find yourself an area where you feel at piece and can roam through chords and notes at your leisure.
Technique is the middle sibiling of the three great assets of art. More impressive than time, but not as inspiring as talent. This requires patience to gain, though. The most skilled musicians take years to reach their peak. Practice, practice, practice... but too much practice can stifle your creative prowess through rigorous conditioning.
Talent is by far the most elusive facet of artistry. You don't obtain it per se. It's not necessarily ingrown, but not everyone has access to it at will. There are a few theories on how to gain it. The first and most difficult is to have a tragic event in your life. This will spur your conscience and imagination to create alternative landscapes so that you may avoid reality. Alas, not everyone is so lucky to lose their father in war or be abused as a child. Therefore, it is more feasible for some people to simply take as many drugs as possible.
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chamberry
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 24 2005
Location: Puerto Rico
Status: Offline
Points: 9008
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 20:21 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
I hear the music inside my head and then i try to play it on a instrument |
that's a good one
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FragileDT
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1485
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 19:41 |
It's all about creativity and not following a specific formula.
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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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Starette
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 502
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 19:03 |
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50 tonne angel falls to the earth...
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Publius84
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 11 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 13:16 |
Man With Hat wrote:
ChadFromCanada wrote:
I don't write songs per se, but I do write down interesting chords if I play something randomly on the guitar. If you're experimental, try hitting random keys on the keyboard or making up random chords on the piano and guitar. Eventually you'll get something cool and you can try to build around it. |
Amen to that
I've done that quite well. And its really one of the best way to come up with something (at least i think so). Play around awhile and usually something of some noteworthyness (excuse the pun) will come out. |
Well said. Both of you. This is my method to. Simply guitar (or other instrument) improvisation is the best way to get something interesting.
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I know what I like and I like what I know...
Prog is in my heart, in my mind, in my soul...
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Ofur
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 139
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 13:02 |
Oh come on, in the 60s you could make an album of fart noises and pass it off as art, Zappa did it all the time Lumpy Gravy, The Chrome Plated Megphone of Destiny etc.
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lunaticviolist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 17 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 478
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 10:21 |
The Lost Chord wrote:
is there a formula people follow?
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The reason music was so good in the '60s and '70s is that artists did
not follow a formula! That's the problem with most music today
(and why you don't like much modern prog) -- artists in general are
just following formulas. Keep writing, and play your stuff to an
objective audience. See what they think.
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My recent purchases:
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A'swepe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 590
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 10:00 |
I seem to posess the ability to just lay my fingers on the piano keyboard & come up with something interesting (at least to myself). I took lessons for a few months, many years ago, & consider myself musically illiterate. I can't play anything start to finish. But, I can hear the notes in my head & I (instinctively) understand what melody & harmony are.
I'll record something interesting & set it to repeat until I figure out the next parts. Thank god for computers & virtual instruments. It's the only way I can make music, other than simple stuff I can play on the guitar or piano.
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David - Never doubt in the dark that which you believe to be true in the light.
http://www.myspace.com/aardvarktxusa - Instrumental rock
http://www.soundclick.com/aardvarktxusa
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Zarquino
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 08:50 |
The random chords method is the best if inspiration doenst com.
Normally inspiration comes to me when I dont have a recorder with me,
so I try to remember later. Drugs are great method, I've used once and
me and a friend wrote about 5 songs in a night, from hard rock to hip
hop (This last one I dont understand how appeared at my friends head)
Bye guys
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There's nothing left to loose
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Zweck
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 234
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 08:43 |
Well, I've two bands which have different appeoaches; a noise/improv-band in which we generally just take out all the instruments, sit down and just play, looping, using sequencers, treating the guitars, screaming, which will also involve some theatrics when applied to the stage.
The other is somewhat of an avant-garde metal, thing. Which is more straight up composing, though with the wretch'd MIDI-sounds of guitarpro, as none of us look kindly upon the concept of long busrides with (In my case) amp, guitar, pedalboard, and possibly some other sh*t, just so the two of us can play our beautiful music on guitar and synth only(You don't expect us to be more than two, do you?). As far as formula goes, there is none. Just think about where you wanna go, think of some intervals, then write, tends to be nice.
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 06:24 |
I hear the music inside my head and then i try to play it on a instrument
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 06:15 |
The Lost Chord wrote:
i know music like i know math!
Pretty bold statement here... I'm sure even Iannis Xenakis wouldn't have said he knew music or math... and he was a revolutionary composer as well as an architect and mathematician...
But i cannot seem to create epic melodies, I can write songs easily, but i am never satisified with what comes out at the end...is there a formula people follow?
I can only second Goose's reaction here. ?? There is and can be no formula for the kind of stuff you want to write - it's simply not formulaic. People who stick to formulas end up with music that can be and often is pleasant, but not very progressive. Maybe the cause of your failure lies in your first statement - you see music as some (low level) maths and try to apply almost mathematical rules to it...
How is it these people made such great music back in the 70's and 60's, what was it about them!?!
There was a lot of uncharted territory in music then, but you basically could see it from your bedroom window... there are still universes of uncharted territory in music, but nowadays this uncharted territory starts in another galaxy. And if you want to get to another galaxy you need some pretty wicked drive. I can give you no direct advice how to get this drive, but check out some interviews with people like Wayne Krantz (who stresses the need of finding something of your own and building upon it), Cecil Taylor, the aformentioned Iannis Xenakis, John Cage, Anthony Braxton, Allan Holdsworth... the interviews won't provide you with a finished score, but they can give you some advice on the right mindset for creating innovative and interesting music.
That said, I'm pretty certain even the greatest of the greatest are frustrated with (almost) all of their music, since it couldn't really express what they felt.
That last sentence was meant to encourage you
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Edited by Manunkind
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Man Erg
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 26 2004
Location: Isle of Lucy
Status: Offline
Points: 7456
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Posted: February 07 2006 at 06:15 |
I find it easier using a portastudio. I record an initial idea onto one track and then replay it repeatedly until I have an accompanyment and then add that to the next empty track transposing the parts onto sheet music as I go. Then,more often than not,rip it all up and begin again.
Edited by Man Erg
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Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb.
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