Rainbow and the creation of Dragon Rock. |
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Stargazer
Forum Newbie Joined: January 06 2006 Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 15:17 | |
(thanks for the reccomendation by the way, I'll look into Heaven And Hell) I don't think that prog. metal is like the classics at all, I think it's more related to heavy metal bands who experiment heavily as the classics did. Bands like Dream Theater and Opeth definetely aren't conventional metal bands. They combine complex musicianship, odd time signatures, and often some sort of classic dabblings into their music, and the lyrical themes are often quite progressive compared to most metal. They combine the complexity of fusion bands with the experimentation of prog. rock with the thundering power of heavy metal to create something very unlike regular metal bands. As far as Rainbow is concerned, they combined the majesty of medieval music, the complexity of classical music (Blackmore did, anyway) with metal, which is more progressive than any metal band of their day, or a while after their day for that matter. Edited by Stargazer |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 15:09 | |
Probably - but "Heaven and Hell" is an amazing album, when you consider the year (1980). If you like Dio/Rainbow and Sabbath then buy it immediately!!! It's much heavier, with a more robust "Prog Metal" style production, and more ambience - but it's also far more slick than any of their earlier albums. It's a definite progression |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 15:08 | |
Combining Prog and Metal would be a good start. And from the few Dream Theater and Opeth albums I've heard (the ones that are reputed to be the masterpieces), there is precious little on either that resembles Prog Rock. In all honestly, I'm beginning think that "Prog Metal" is a style - not something that's actually related to "Real" Prog Rock. Can you honestly say that you hear such a common style between Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis, VDGG, Pink Floyd or any of the other "Classic" bands? Prog Rock emphatically isn't a style - it's really difficult to define (although I think I'm getting there...).
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Stargazer
Forum Newbie Joined: January 06 2006 Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 15:04 | |
In reply to Cerit1ed, I think that adding Dio and Elf would be a great
idea, but I don't know about Black Sabbath. I haven't heard much of
their post Ozzy stuff, is it anything like early Rainbow? I'm betting
that Rainbow still has more prog. influences than Dio-Sabbath does.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21294 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:59 | |
Bands like Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, Opeth, Tool and Symphony X define the genre. As long as you don't accept them as prog, you don't accept Prog Metal ... you more like build your own definition of Prog Metal which differs from that of most other people. What would be your definition of prog metal? Which would be the key bands of a genre which combines prog and metal? |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:54 | |
As I've said MANY times before, I do not have anything against Prog Metal. I wouldn't listen to so much of it if I did - but the more I hear, the more I wonder where the Prog is. It was easy to get from early Rainbow to Queensryche; Rainbow, Black Sabbath, Dio (via RJD). Holy Diver was released in 1982 and The Last In Line in 1983. 1983 was when Queensryche released their first (and definitely Non-Prog) album, so the comparison is a fair one. Ritchie may have run Rainbow like a business, but RJD's influence is highly apparent - especially when you compare it with the other stuff he did. |
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Stargazer
Forum Newbie Joined: January 06 2006 Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:53 | |
Okay okay fine, maybe shredding was too strong a word. He's still an incredibly techincal player, and I still think Rainbow should be moved to progressive metal, that was really what I was getting at in the first place. Also, I didn't really mean to say we should add a new genre to the site, I was just saying that Rainbow/Dio really invented dragon rock, I don't think we should add a new section to the site. One way or the other, I think Rainbow's first four albums would fit under prog. metal. It's definetely not something like Queensryche, as was said, but their immense influence upon the genre should get them a spot. On a side note, I have a band picture and biography written up. Edited by Stargazer |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21294 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:41 | |
^ But I've read that Blackmore "ran" Rainbow like a company where he was the boss. So essentially they all had to do as he said. Which must have been the main reason for DIO to leave. I don't know why they became more mainstream after that though. BTW: You still can't leave Prog Metal alone, can you? It's amazing how you can get from early Rainbow to Queensryche ... |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:29 | |
Ronnie James Dio invented and developed "Dragon Rock" almost single-handed - listen to the stuff he did with Elf (before he joined Rainbow), then listen to "Heaven and Hell" (Black Sabbath) and his own band's early albums. Every track about Rainbows, Dragons, Goblins, and other hocus pocus - and to a track, progressive. Apart from "Long Live Rock and Roll", that is... Ritchie Blackmore was also a very Progressive guitarist, with lots of great ideas - but when Dio left, the direction of Rainbow as a band changed totally. Conversely, when Dio joined Black Sabbath, the change to their sound overall was immediate and dramatic. It's interesting to compare his influence with that of, say, Ian Gillan... Add Rainbow, and you'll have to consider adding Elf, Black Sabbath and Dio. "Holy Diver" and "The Last In Line" are incredibly progressive metal albums - way ahead of, say, Queensryche...
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spo1977
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 09 2005 Status: Offline Points: 285 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:18 | |
I agree with the original post, except, do we really need another label? Dragon Rock. Not to be rude Stargazer but there are way to many categories here already. I do not think descriptions hurt but some prog fans seem to be somewhat obsessive over where bands "really" belong.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21294 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:38 | |
They combined classical music (baroque, rather) with metal. I think that Prog Related would be a fitting genre. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:28 | |
Rainbow had an acoustic side with slight folk influences which Purple did not. Track such as "16th Century Green sleeves" and "Catch the rainbow", to name but two, point towards the direction Blackmore's Night would eventually follow. Hey, we're on the same side though. |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:21 | |
Some of his instrumentals are wonderful-Weiss Heim,Vielleichst Das Nachste Zeit and,of course,Difficult To Cure. The classical elements he brings to his solos,as SG mentions ,are at times bewitching:Stargazer and Gates Of Babylon added to the three I have already mentioned,but he never really moves in to shredding territory. All 4 highly recommended |
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Stargazer
Forum Newbie Joined: January 06 2006 Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:01 | |
Tony R., they should definetely be under metal. If you've ever seen
their live performances, they're WAY heavier than they are in the
studio, and they definetely reach into the heavy metal range.
As for Ritchie Blackmore being a "blues-rock" player and Page being more experimentive....No. What'd page do that was progressive? Violin bows? Tuning peg vibratos? That's all of his experiments that I can even think of, he's hardly more experimental than Blackmore. Blackmore had more technicality than Page did, and he certainly wasn't "sloppy" like Page was. His post-Bonnet Rainbow stuff, and the DP reunion stuff, had some very fast solos. They weren't sloppy, and while they aren't exactly Malmsteen shredding material, he was still one of the faster players at that time. |
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JayDee
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: September 07 2005 Location: Elysian Fields Status: Offline Points: 10063 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 08:50 | |
Yay for Rainbow and Blackmores night!!! Rainbow for prog realted...
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Researcher Joined: August 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 08:38 | |
I believe we have both made our feelings about Triumph known: Triumph?! Are you sh**ting me?!? 'm not sure I completely agree with Easy Livin that Rainbow is a missing link between Deep Purple (proto-prog, BTW) and Night (Prog folk), since Night is nothing at all like either Deep Purple or Rainbow, and Rainbow was an on-going project during the post-formative years of Deep Purple. Still, he makes a solid point that both of those bands are here, and the main common denominator between them is Blackmore, who was clearly the creative element in Rainbow. |
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 07:08 | |
I'd trade Triumph's spot for Abba,and I used to like Triumph..... Don't start me on about Triumph being on the archive.... Rainbow should be here under Prog-Related.Not sure they've anything to do with Prog-Metal,except maybe thematically.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 06:55 | |
Rainbow are certainly the missing link between Deep Purple and Blackmore's Night, both of whom are now on the site.
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Pafnutij
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2005 Location: Russian Federation Status: Offline Points: 415 |
Posted: January 07 2006 at 04:12 | |
They were a good band, and quite advanced for a rock band, but not enough for progressive rock , or even that pointless prog-related section. As for Blackmore "shredding", that would be the case only if you compare him to sloppy players like Jimmy Page, as he (Blackmore) did have considerable technique for a blues-rock guitarist. However, the very same Page outshone him considerably in the experimetation department.
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Researcher Joined: August 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
Posted: January 06 2006 at 23:21 | |
The Temple of the King, Tarot Woman, 16th Century Greensleeves, Gates of Babylon, Lady of the Lake, Weiss Heim, all of these are at least good enough to be called "prog-related", if not "prog metal", if not for the technical skill, at least for Dio's oh-so-awesome vocals, and the better-than-hair-metal lyrics. I personally would be willing to trade Triumph's spot for Rainbow.
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus |
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