'I don't get it' |
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5329 |
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Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 02:54 |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65173 |
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^ You've just proven my point better than I ever could.
Thank you. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5329 |
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This is a real example of a "simplistic & childlike" artwork drawn by an actual child (me at age 10): A child draws simple and low quality art, but they at least try to convey some information (which is as deep as a kid's understanding can go) and make an attempt at fulfilling their artistic vision. A typical child lacks skill and isn't a master at anatomy, but at least you can see the intentions behind it. Mark Rothko's art is a different beast. The quintessential problem of Rothko's art is simply that it doesn't showcase any real artistic competence, knowledge or art fundamentals (perspective, geometry, anatomy). Well honestly, it doesn't convey any message either. It absolutely fails at communication. Those hipster experts are certainly just overanalyzing the art and reading too deep into it. The thing is, those "experts" are NOT ARTISTS THEMSELVES. I think that approach is really unfair towards truly skilled commercial pop culture artists. For example, my friend's artwork: Okay, pop culture art doesn't bear any philosophical meaning. Well, it's the opposite - pure self-indulgent entertaining brain rot aimed at an undemanding casual viewer. But, the end product actually proves that the artist is skilled and knows the art fundamentals well. While, Mark Rothko's works, at least relatively objectively speaking, without the shoehorned in weight of extra hipster interpretations, does not. Those 'avant garde art experts' give what might as well be overgloified trolling too much credit, and the way they do it is a terrible form of determining someone's genius. Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 02:52 |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65173 |
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The controversy itself is controversial, and the purported 'scam' is itself a bit of a scam, as it was never conclusive whether she was a gifted child who got a bit of guidance from her father, or whether the father created the paintings himself. But this story, though interesting, does not address whether the opinions of seasoned veterans in a given field should or should not be taken as credible. A bunch of people decided to pay a bunch of money for some artwork, and so they did. Doesn't tell us much other than the art world is funny. My favorite painter happens to be Mark Rothko who is often panned as talentless, a simplistic hack, and that "A child could paint that stuff!". But that does not detract from Rothko's achievements, gifts, and breakthroughs as a modern painter. You can claim his work is simplistic & childlike but it doesn't mean anything other than non-experts don't know s h i t about modern art. Edited by Atavachron - August 03 2024 at 02:03 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5329 |
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Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 02:06 |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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I just wanted to make a comment on the expertise of doctors. If a doctor makes a diagnosis and the patient disagrees with that diagnosis the patient is free to seek a second OPINION. This has happened to me, where one doctor said one thing and, on seeking a second opinion another doctor gave a different and correct diagnosis. If the first doctor had have given me a correct diagnosis it would have saved me a lot of pain and other unpleasant circumstances as a result of the misdiagnosis. |
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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I just wanted to repost this because I agree with these sentiments wholeheartedly and thought they deserve to be emphasised. |
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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I may not be a lifelong art expert (whatever that means), but that does not make my opinion irrelevant, at least not to me. If only lifelong experts on anything were allowed an opinion on any given thing, then that would certainly narrow the field on who is allowed an opinion on what. You might be aware of Marla Olmstead a young child who was hailed by so called art experts as a prodigy with her works selling for large amounts only to have it revealed that her father was actually creating the works and passing them off as being by her, after which the prices for her work plummeted. "The world of art criticism, despite its many proponents, also encounters opposition from individuals and groups who question the influence and relevance of critics within the art ecosystem. Here’s an exploration of the various reasons why some people oppose the role of art critics:
Critics’ assessments are often seen as subjective, based on personal preferences and biases. Opposers argue that this subjectivity can lead to unfair evaluations and may not always reflect the sentiments of a broader audience.
Some detractors believe that critics tend to over-intellectualize art, making it seem inaccessible or elitist. They argue that this can deter a wider audience from engaging with or appreciating art." From: https://medium.com/@underratedshop/critics-in-the-art-world-940c16bbf37f Art experts are good for determining the authenticity of a piece of art, but then there's Orson Welles' "F for Fake". As far as Jackson Pollock is concerned, I actually prefer his works to Picasso, if only because they are to me a brilliant representation of fractals. But hey, that's just my opinion. Edited by Hugh Manatee - August 03 2024 at 00:17 |
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 39670 |
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And the grand total as of the last update in December '23 (Oh, what a night!), was 191 albums by Tangerine Dream and 63 albums by Klaus Schulze, although Tangerine Dream have probably released half a dozen more albums since then.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7262 |
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WE ARE NOT WORTHY!!
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35571 |
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I looked up :v, I guessed it was sarcastic or ironic. For any who may not know (which quite likely is no one at the forum), j/k equals just kidding. I usually use ;) for j/k. Like with other categories, there's avant prog I like and dislike and everyone to their own tastes. I have seen such statements from people and is quite annoying; very arrogant. I wish more people would talk about the qualities they appreciate in music without telling another how they should appreciate music. What music sounds good and evokes the right emotions is in the ear of the behearer. I have had people on the more melodic rock side tell me that what I like is bad and just noise and no one should like it just to try to annoy me in some cases). I loathe such attitudes. There are those who do seem to forget that music appreciation is subjective and no two people appreciate music in precisely the same way. We all bring in our own psyches, experiences, associations.... I will appreciate certain music at one time and not appreciate it at another depending on mood and other factors. And some music I had to find the right stepping stones to appreciate, and with other music I lost interest over time. I do think one can appreciate the qualities of music without necessarily liking the music, but that's another thing. While I do think there is good and bad music (at least following certain principles) I wish less people talked about music as if it is good or bad and would be less apt to confuse personal preference with objective goodness. I care about if music is good for me more than if it good writ large. Some music resonates with me particularly well at certain times and might not have resonated before being exposed to music that led me there and primed me. Enjoy the journey, everyone's is different. I don't want to be told what I "should" like and how I "should" appreciate it. Edited by Logan - August 02 2024 at 08:29 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35571 |
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It's not an approach that would work for me commonly, for one thing I haven't the patience, am not a completest, and would rather have time to discover more diversity of names, and for another, when I connect with an album I usually like to play it many times. I would rather listen to lot of albums I love and that approach would mean that I might stop before I get to the stuff I would have liked and I might have to force myself through a lot of bad for my ears music. There are some acts where that chronological approach could work really well for me and I would happily return to them to listen in chronological order. I was something of a watching all of a director's films guy if the first film I saw, no matter where it come in the oeuvre, I loved and felt quite unique. To use a big name, I could see a certain joy in going back to watch all of Kubrick's films in order, but then I would want to throw some Lindsay Anderson into the mix when it was time for A Clockwork Orange with Malcolm McDowell. I can see listening to a whole discography in order, or reading a novelist's books in order (I have done that before), being interesting from an evolutionary perspective. I like that listening to all by an artist can give you a fuller picture of the music. I like that you can perhaps see a maturing phase and changes in style and interest with the artists. It could be a really great journey and give more insight. My issue would be that if you only listening to the start, that's fine for judging the start, but not the artist overall, and one should not assume that one will dislike everything based on that. When I say I dislike an artist I often will say based on which material, but my approach makes it easier to change my mind if someone recommends other music by the artist. That flexibility works for me. Listen to music in the way that you get the most out of it. What I think matters to me, but I would not say that it should matter to you. There are many paths to Nirvana, follow your pilgrimage, follow your bliss. I do get it, you have to do it your way. |
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 39670 |
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I don't need to imagine it, having already listened to the entire discography of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze from beginning to end on my Tangerine Dream blog.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17446 |
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Hi,
BTW Paul ... can you imagine Klaus Schulze from the start? Or Tangerine Dream? Where's that insanity pill, Paul?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17446 |
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Hi, For the longest time, that was my way of listening to things, with one slight difference. When it comes to "progressive" I had already heard many of the early things by many of the bands ... thus, I was already onto the chronological order of things. Now, here comes joke time ... are you going to listen to 8 full Symphonies before you get to Beethoven's 9th? ... I DOUBT IT! You'll get bored because not all of the Symphonies are "dynamic like the 5th (start mostly) and the 9th, as is well known. But there were some things onto the 90's and beyond that I did not bother with listening. I do not dislike DT, but never saw the point of listening to their earlier stuff, and in fact, I didn't enjoy it much. But other than that, Porcupine Tree started for me with the SIGNIFY album and I went forward several albums before I got the earlier stuff. It is a good rule for folks learning about the music itself, but (in general) not exactly a good idea ... one can listen to Genesis from the beginning, and will get to the end, and go ... wtf? And the same for other bands. Some bands I can listen to but are not my favorites. Rush is one of them ... as roomates in the mid/late 70's had their albums, but while nice, I was already full blast into the Europeans, and I did not think that Rush was as great as Banco, PFM. Le Orme, Ange, AD2, Can and so on ... and all of those I was there on the first album. Listening habits today are tough ... I don't know that suggesting 10 albums (from the start, let's say) is a good idea ... folks mostly listen to 4-5 minute jingles (as I call them) and often times, many of the favored albums, are all song related in the same time frame (or thereabouts) and format ... but in our case, things change, and sometimes harshly ... which is not good for someone just learning about a band or "progressive".
Edited by moshkito - August 02 2024 at 06:31 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 39670 |
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As you're probably aware by now, I always like to listen to an artist's complete discography in its entirety from beginning to end in order to get a full picture of an artist's musical history, but I just can't get past the Swans' (dreadful to my ears) first three albums. I know you may not agree with that approach, but that's Just the Way It Is. I'm just a dedicated dyed-in-the-wool completionist. I take just the same approach with my movie-watching too, where I'll watch an actor's entire filmography (where available) in chronological order from beginning to end. Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 02 2024 at 05:04 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17446 |
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HI, (cont'd) ... regardless of how we see it as one thing or another.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5329 |
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Anyway, the counter-argument from those groups I've mentioned is usually a gatekeepingy one such as: "the music is too complex for you and you're just too simple to understand the genius of Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Cardiacs etc." or "you have no idea how important and groundbreaking Klaus Schulze's music was at the time". I don't like that approach because to me, music has to sound good and evoke the right kind of emotions. |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35571 |
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I have noticed it from Neo-Prog fans (and Prog Metal fans) quite a bit here over my many years here. Here are some fun, perhaps, old Neo-Prog threads: :D Neo-Prog Defense Thread (sword in hand) (CLICK) In Defence of Neo-Prog (CLICK) Neo prog bands, is there a real problem? (CLICK) Bashing RIO/ Avant-Prog and Klaus Schulze is just plain stupid (j/k). A lot of the time defensive people are trying to clear up misconceptions, infer knowledge and/or infer greater understanding and different perspectives as they see it no matter the genre, thing or idea they are defending. Sometimes it's not about defending or accusing but just sharing a different idea and perspective -- people may interpret the intent in a negative light. Like criticism, this can be handled civilly and constructively or rudely, with arrogance, petulance, self-righteousness.... Edited by Logan - August 01 2024 at 20:44 |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15216 |
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^ yeah but there's also the fact that sometimes artists are well ahead of their time and the public truly doesn't "get it" meaning they haven't calculated on how the artist has put together a piece of art that is too many steps ahead of how the average person can connect the dots. This is true of "experts" too As far as using Picasso as an example of "best" painter. Sure, he was great technically at reproducing real life events but how do you know other contenders weren't allowed to show their works or sell their product? I mean unless you were there you have no idea how history transpired. Also talent may have sprung up but the artists weren't given the resources to nurture their talent. Personally i think Hieronymous Bosch was much more skilled both creatively and technically no matter how perfect the strokes of paint pleased painting professors Just speaking from a progressive rock perspective which is more modern and traceable there were bands far more talented than many of what's gone down in history as the most innovative Sure there are universal agreements like King Crimson, Yes and Frank Zappa but even if one recognizes that these artists were original doesn't mean they necessarily attracted mass appeal in every case (function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'8ac9f2907f9a7af8',t:'MTcyMjU1ODUwMi4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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