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ELP Underrated?

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Floydoid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 12:51
I remember the legendary Radio One DJ John Peel once described ELP 'a waste of talent and electricity'.

On a side note he also described the music of Focus as 'rat's pi$$'.
'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 11:00
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

ELP used to be played a lot on Radio Caroline which was a 'hippy' radio station loosely portrayed in the film 'The boat that rocked'. That was around early 80's when no one else was playing them. I stopped listening to radio a long time ago. British mainstream radio started sucking big time around the 80's and hasn't stopped since. Commercial radio is just terrible in the UK. Celine Dion and Whitney Houston on endless repeat anyone? Planet Rock radio is okay if you want AC/DC on the hour every hour. They did set up a subscription service for a sister 'prog station' but I've never bothered with it. I think there is more chance I'll discover what I want via streaming and recommendations on PA and Y/T.

You might like prog radio (progradio.com). It seems to be one of the better prog radio stations out there now even though it's relatively new. There's a lot of the usual suspects on there but also lesser known. The emphasis (besides the classics) seems to be on more recent lesser known bands. ELP came in at number 20 on their chart which is basically a popularity chart. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 06:31
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
British mainstream radio started sucking big time around the 80's and hasn't stopped since. Commercial radio is just terrible in the UK. 
...

Hi,

Dave Cousins (Strawbs), in his book describes some of the hassles as he was one of the folks trying to open up radio in the UK and started up a few FM stations, though I'm not sure that he was able to make them "progressive", or he likely would not be allowed to do what he did, and get approved.

England, just like a lot of places, is highly controlled by the rich and what they own ... the BBC is a good representative of that, although when it comes to comedy in the 1950's, they wrote the book ... the best ever! But when it came to music, and radio the foo-fake daddies that ran the country wanted to make sure the young generation did not have a voice ... they lost that battle, but they still control the airwaves! So it has become, like the USA, just a two party dictatorship ... you can't do much because the main controls won't allow it.

In the USA, it was not even subtle ... the FCC years back allowed a corporate group to own more than one station in any location, and this meant that one person would control the airwaves in LA, SF, Chicago, and other places. Before, there was a somewhat interesting contest to see who did better and in LA KMET and KLOS fought quite a bit, and did well, until KLOS was sold and then one day, KMET was turned into washing machine music over night with everyone fired. Jim Ladd, was likely paid to not say anything, as he has (to my knowledge) never said anything about it and stuck to the music. But his tastes were not, exactly past the top bands in progressive.

By 2000, I hoped that the Internet would help ... and it did, but it also brought in/over the kind of fans that a lot of FM stations did not like, and they were trolls to the max and sometimes took the energy and comments out of where they should be ... and PA has a wee bit of that issue, when the best folks here, even participate in those areas instead of helping clean them up.

I'm glad that the Internet has, in every way, killed radio ... and I hope that those stations go back to being independent, though I doubt that will happen as the stations are a political point for the corporate group and shamelessly so! The days of the "fairness" are long gone, since the folks running the FCC are the same owners that carry the stations ... they would not vote against themselves.

But I'm not sure the Internet will be that much better until such a time as something new happens as an artistic grouping ... because right now, it is just a bunch of fans, and you know they will not like the new thing, because it takes away their feelings for their favorite numbers and ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 21:36
ELP used to be played a lot on Radio Caroline which was a 'hippy' radio station loosely portrayed in the film 'The boat that rocked'. That was around early 80's when no one else was playing them. I stopped listening to radio a long time ago. British mainstream radio started sucking big time around the 80's and hasn't stopped since. Commercial radio is just terrible in the UK. Celine Dion and Whitney Houston on endless repeat anyone? Planet Rock radio is okay if you want AC/DC on the hour every hour. They did set up a subscription service for a sister 'prog station' but I've never bothered with it. I think there is more chance I'll discover what I want via streaming and recommendations on PA and Y/T.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 16:39
^In this day and age most people probably listen to stuff on youtube to sample stuff to hear what it sounds like. I actually rarely do that since I like to be surprised. I do, however, go by reviews and ratings (I use PA and RYM mostly but sometimes also All Music). I don't go by the radio anymore because quite frankly most current music on the radio sucks. :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 15:57
^Yeah, if I usually didn't hear about a band from a friend or a music mag, I wouldn't know. Nektar I knew of (I forget how) and I bought a couple records on a whim at a shop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 14:40
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

No, you're right although you and I being around the same age means we were too young to pay too close attention to what was played on FM radio in the 70s. However, as far as I know, those bands were played late at night on prog specialty programs but were probably not part of regular FM radio play; however, ELP were. But I was thinking more of present day and I was also thinking more in terms of prog circles. Old fans of 70s fm rock who were listening to the radio back then and were fans of ELP would probably not know GG, VDGG and Camel unless they were also big prog fans (many were not though).


Now that you mention it, I concur. In the '90s, I listened to Greg Stone's program Stone Trek on Sundays via KLOS 95.5 FM. Greg operated out of KOME in San Jose. Greg played prog and nothing but prog for an hour. That's the one and only time I heard Camel played on the radio ("Lunar Sea" from A Live Record).

Stone Trek's plug was pulled in 1997, but the new station KFOX allowed Greg to resurrect Stone Trek in 2004, and he did it for a few more years till another format change happened. There's a bunch of shows on YouTube.

Greg and his brother Tim also owned a music store in Los Gatos from 1987-94. Apparently, they had a hand in booking Jean-Luc Ponty and some others for gigs near them. Greg passed away in 2022 at the age of 75.


In the mid to late 80s I remember a program called For Headphones only on WMMR in Philadelphia that played music that sounded good with headphones. It wasn't strictly prog but a lot of it was. 

Then in the late 80s I remember Ed Sciaky from WYSP had a show called the Progressive Music show which I believe was usually on Sunday nights. He played music from "the progressive era" although JA's "embryonic journey" was the theme music (opening and closing). I don't remember him going really, really deep but I do remember him mentioning Camel and I do remember him playing Renaissance. At that time most people weren't aware of any contemporary bands so this was all late 60s and 70s stuff. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 13:59
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

No, you're right although you and I being around the same age means we were too young to pay too close attention to what was played on FM radio in the 70s. However, as far as I know, those bands were played late at night on prog specialty programs but were probably not part of regular FM radio play; however, ELP were. But I was thinking more of present day and I was also thinking more in terms of prog circles. Old fans of 70s fm rock who were listening to the radio back then and were fans of ELP would probably not know GG, VDGG and Camel unless they were also big prog fans (many were not though).


Now that you mention it, I concur. In the '90s, I listened to Greg Stone's program Stone Trek on Sundays via KLOS 95.5 FM. Greg operated out of KOME in San Jose. Greg played prog and nothing but prog for an hour. That's the one and only time I heard Camel played on the radio ("Lunar Sea" from A Live Record).

Stone Trek's plug was pulled in 1997, but the new station KFOX allowed Greg to resurrect Stone Trek in 2004, and he did it for a few more years till another format change happened. There's a bunch of shows on YouTube.

Greg and his brother Tim also owned a music store in Los Gatos from 1987-94. Apparently, they had a hand in booking Jean-Luc Ponty and some others for gigs near them. Greg passed away in 2022 at the age of 75.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 13:17
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Philly likes Boston (the band) too much.


Maybe. LOL

Philadelphia was also one of the biggest places for Yes. Yes were huge in Philadelphia. However, you wouldn't know that now because these days the local classic rock station really only plays "owner of a lonely heart" and maybe very occasionally something else (probably usually roundabout).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 13:13
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I do think in 2024 ELP are indeed underrated. How is that possible? Well, you don't hear them on the radio anymore (or very rarely if you do), they aren't one of the first bands most people discover when first getting into prog and they just aren't on hardly anyone's radar anymore including most prog fans. Even GG, Camel and VDGG get more attention and exposure not to mention many newer bands. All imo of course!


I could be wrong, but I don't think Gentle Giant, Camel and especially Van der Graaf Generator were played on FM in the States past the '70s (or ever, in VdGG's case). From the '90s-forward, I've heard "Lucky Man," "From the Beginning," "Hoedown," "Fanfare," and the "Karn Evil 9, Part 2, 2nd Impression" edit, and especially EL&Powell's "Touch and Go" on FM. If you want to hear ELP randomly pop up on your dial, your best bet is to subscribe to Sirius XM.

ELP has been reissued, remastered, collected and anthologized umpteen times. EL&Powell's Complete Collection was just issued by Cherry Red this year. These guys aren't exactly fading into obscurity.

Camel is still active. GG/VdGG are not.


No, you're right although you and I being around the same age means we were too young to pay too close attention to what was played on FM radio in the 70s. However, as far as I know, those bands were played late at night on prog specialty programs but were probably not part of regular FM radio play; however, ELP were. But I was thinking more of present day and I was also thinking more in terms of prog circles. Old fans of 70s fm rock who were listening to the radio back then and were fans of ELP would probably not know GG, VDGG and Camel unless they were also big prog fans (many were not though). 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - September 26 2024 at 13:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 13:08
Philly likes Boston (the band) too much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 13:07
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I do think in 2024 ELP are indeed underrated. How is that possible? Well, you don't hear them on the radio anymore (or very rarely if you do), they aren't one of the first bands most people discover when first getting into prog and they just aren't on hardly anyone's radar anymore including most prog fans. Even GG, Camel and VDGG get more attention and exposure not to mention many newer bands. All imo of course!


I could be wrong, but I don't think Gentle Giant, Camel and especially Van der Graaf Generator were played on FM in the States past the '70s (or ever, in VdGG's case). From the '90s-forward, I've heard "Lucky Man," "From the Beginning," "Hoedown," "Fanfare," and the "Karn Evil 9, Part 2, 2nd Impression" edit, and especially EL&Powell's "Touch and Go" on FM. If you want to hear ELP randomly pop up on your dial, your best bet is to subscribe to Sirius XM.

ELP has been reissued, remastered, collected and anthologized umpteen times. EL&Powell's Complete Collection was just issued by Cherry Red this year. These guys aren't exactly fading into obscurity.

Camel is still active. GG/VdGG are not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 12:39
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I hear Lucky Man, From the Beginning, and Still you turn me on, on the radio on occasion. Never Heard GG, Camel, or VDGG on the radio.

How is it possible? The new generation of listeners don't like it. I doubt they listen to Gentle Giant much either.



Maybe it depends on where you live. In the Philadelphia area (where I live), which is suppose to be this big prog town, I never hear them on the classic rock stations and over the past few years I've been looking at their play list and to be honest I can't remember the last time I've seen them listed (let alone heard them) on there. I'm not saying nobody plays them but it just seems like they have been mostly forgotten by most. GG, VDGG and Camel were never really on anyone's radar (not counting prog fans) to begin with so it's not like they are forgotten since they were never rermembered. Anyway, of course I was referring to prog fans when mentioning them. 

I just looked at spotify and it appears that King Crimson have more listeners than ELP does (KC around 900,000 and ELP with 690,000). King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard have more than both. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 12:27
I hear Lucky Man, From the Beginning, and Still you turn me on, on the radio on occasion. Never Heard GG, Camel, or VDGG on the radio.

How is it possible? The new generation of listeners don't like it. I doubt they listen to Gentle Giant much either.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - September 26 2024 at 12:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 11:53
I do think in 2024 ELP are indeed underrated. How is that possible? Well, you don't hear them on the radio anymore (or very rarely if you do), they aren't one of the first bands most people discover when first getting into prog and they just aren't on hardly anyone's radar anymore including most prog fans. Even GG, Camel and VDGG get more attention and exposure not to mention many newer bands. All imo of course!

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - September 26 2024 at 11:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 10:37
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

... an example is Rick Wokeman ... who, for all his knowledge and musicianship, still does not value the freedom and ability to create out of "nothing" and come up with TFTO with the band, and then spend his time talking about how bad it was. It's even worse when you separate his parts in it, and how some of them are truly neat ... and he has no respect for his ability, playing and additions to the over all project, which was phenomenal.


Rick wasn't like the other guys. When he first joined, he thought his membership was destined to be a brief one because he'd never been in a band whose members argued as much as they did. It must've been off-putting at first. That's why he went solo a few years later, to be inevitably brought back.

As for the other part, that's just his personality. I seriously doubt he thinks his contributions should've been jettisoned.


Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

He is, for me, a sort of John Lennon's comment ... middle class hero ... and his compositional abilities are not as good as he thinks, is my opinion, at least like some folks like Ryuichi Sakamoto, or Vangelis Pappathanassiou ... who not only went out and gave it their all ... and ended up with an OSCAR in their closet and will be remembered forever as "composers" ... thanks to movies ... something that RW won't do because it will probably show that he has no visual ability to work with music ... it's all DAW and notes or just another synth for the same thing in a different part of the piece.


TEHO, but that's a weird take, PS. "All DAW and notes or just another synth" to hammer away on? There are many keyboardists like that, but RW's not in that group. He doesn't have an Oscar but most of the films he scored wouldn't ever make it into that category.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 06:05
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
In later years Emerson formed a very productive musical relationship with American singer and guitarist Marc Bonilla eventually together recording The Three Fates Project with a German orchestra. You need to hear this as it's very good indeed. Keith Emerson will always remain my hero in music. Are we allowed those? I do hope so. 

Ramble over.


Hi,

I probably hold Keith Emerson way up high in terms of an artist and composer, and I'm not sure there are many folks in rock or jazz music that go that far compositionally, although the tendency is for us to try and bring in folks that ... are not quite as strong ... an example is Rick Wokeman ... who, for all his knowledge and musicianship, still does not value the freedom and ability to create out of "nothing" and come up with TFTO with the band, and then spend his time talking about how bad it was. It's even worse when you separate his parts in it, and how some of them are truly neat ... and he has no respect for his ability, playing and additions to the over all project, which was phenomenal. He is, for me, a sort of John Lennon's comment ... middle class hero ... and his compositional abilities are not as good as he thinks, is my opinion, at least like some folks like Ryuichi Sakamoto, or Vangelis Pappathanassiou ... who not only went out and gave it their all ... and ended up with an OSCAR in their closet and will be remembered forever as "composers" ... thanks to movies ... something that RW won't do because it will probably show that he has no visual ability to work with music ... it's all DAW and notes or just another synth for the same thing in a different part of the piece.

My one and only sad thought about all this ... orchestras around the world, are not touching the works of these 3 folks at all and continually are trying to show the same thing over and over again ... and I'm not sure I can handle Pink Martini again, without __________ up, here in Portland. When talking to the conductor about that, he looked at me, and said that it wasn't "serious music". Good thing I had some manners ... I really wanted to give him a flying finger ... but that orchestra, which is falling apart with no support, will continue falling off until these guys wake up to MUSIC .... not an idea of it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2024 at 05:58
I think they were creatures of their era, so the bombastic element is understandable, if still annoying at times, as part of the stardom game many were playing then. That doesn't make me love them any less. As for the album-by-album rating, Works vol 2 and Love Beach are significantly under the others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 23:37
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

...
the fact that by 1976 they could barely be in the same room as each other didn't make for a collaborative writing relationship, but ultimately they were unable to navigate the choppy waters of the late 70's music scene with anything approaching the success of Yes, Genesis or Rush.
...

Hi,

I'm of the opinion that ELP did not quite fall prey to the sales and success that Yes, Genesis and Rush fell towards. ELP was more concerned with its musical ability and its definition, which would be a problem for Keith to express himself to his 2 mates, but we can easily state that they did very well together!

I fell out of those 3 bands in the mid 70's as I find that they did not exactly continued on an artistic landscape, and in my opinion they started to create works to satisfy the audience instead. That's what "hits" and "fame" do to you, and that is a well known fact. But I doubt that hits and fame would have changed the musical talent and ability that Keith showed, and his mates helped in that area, despite what might be considered an issue here and there, and even Greg Lake specified in a couple of specials, that in the end, some of the stuff they did was very difficult, and required a level of interaction with each other to make it work ... most rock bands are not musically strong enough to consider that in their music ... and have a tendency to change a chord and do something else here and there, and then add a solo here and there, and ... you get the idea. Music is a lot more than that, and it will always be, and the formatted and stuck "pop" music, will dominate as long as sales make it so ... when the sales drop off it will change to something else.

I think that Keith wanted to go into an area that was more classical in style, but it was a severe problem with the record company and specially the folks distributing the materials ... all of a sudden the Manticore stuff would not be picked up as it once was, or exposed as well. It helped PFM and BANCO for a time, but in the end, they had to fend for themselves, because the distributors for Manticore didn't want stuff that did not bring in the big money like ELP could. And I have a feeling that their last album was a finger to many of those folks.

I agree with a lot of this of course. Memoirs Of An Officer And A Gentleman was still Keith writing music in a symphonic vein and after ELP split he continued working working with noted orchestral conductor Godfrey Salmon for his first 2 solo albums. In fact his first 3 solo albums all featured orchestra. Emerson, Lake and Powell (although I'm not a fan in all honesty) was a genuine attempt to resurrect ''prog'' in its original form and no one else out there was trying to do that back in 1986. Unfortunately though another falling out with Lake lead to the truly awful Emerson, Berry and Palmer project (known as '3 to the power of 3' although they played at the Atlantic anniversary bash around 1988 calling themselves 'Emerson and Palmer', Robert Berry was a spare wheel by all acounts lol). I enjoyed ELP's reunion album Black Moon and saw them on that tour in 1993, they were really good (let's not mention that Harvey Weinstein was also a fan and his company did the promotion). In The Hot Seat was a sh*t show sadly beset by carpal tunnel syndrome issues. no good ideas and a record company fast going under. I do like Hand Of Truth , the last ELP track I like a lot and better than anything else on that disastrous album. They then went off to tour South America in 1997 and that was a lot of fun for the,. But another falling between Lake and Emerson lead to then near permanent break up of the band although around 2007 the two of them got back together and did some gigs using a drum machine instead of Carl Palmer. I can only wonder what Carl thought of that! Then ELP did their final and last ever performance at The High Voltage festival in Victoria Park, East London. I was there and they sold out all their XXL t-shirts and played a gig that was nowhere near the glory days of the 70's and they were done. 
In later years Emerson formed a very productive musical relationship with American singer and guitarist Marc Bonilla eventually together recording The Three Fates Project with a German orchestra. You need to hear this as it's very good indeed. Keith Emerson will always remain my hero in music. Are we allowed those? I do hope so. 
Ramble over.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 18:08
Underrated? No. Unfairly put in a box and ridiculed by tw*t critics (primarily NY tw*t critics) with their asinine agendas? Certainly, yes. In fact, they are still paying the price. 
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