Progressive Metal Appreciation - All Subgenres

Shadowyzard wrote: Grumpyprogfan wrote: FatherChristmas wrote: ^Is there really jazz metal?? Wow, I need to listen to some of that!!! Not a genre on PA but I posted some jazz metal earlier in this thread. Special Providence. No one pays attention? I've known SP for many years. I even reviewed their album Soul Alert for a Turkish webzine many years ago. Very quality band.

Killer album. The video I posted is from that album.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - September 24 2020 at 14:45

FatherChristmas wrote: ^Is there really jazz metal?? Wow, I need to listen to some of that!!!

Not a genre on PA but I posted some jazz metal earlier in this thread. Special Providence. No one pays attention?

Also, Panzerballett is a jazz metal group worth your time.

FatherChristmas wrote: ^Is there really jazz metal?? Wow, I need to listen to some of that!!!

Here's one extreme jazzy prog metal song from the Hell. 

BTW, I love this album. Both fun and includes fantastic musicianship.



Edited by Shadowyzard - September 24 2020 at 14:04

I'm pretty good at bringing things back on topic before I derail discussion again. Rinse and repeat. ;)

Morglbl is an eclectic instrumental jazz-metal fusion band that I like.

More metal, I like Mastodon.

Shadowyzard wrote: Logan wrote: FatherChristmas wrote: Logan wrote: Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^Agree, and this thread is for heavy music, not Avant. Let's keep on the subject. But there is avant heavy music. I would say that all of the music I posted above in response to you is quite heavy and avant. And I think that the Diablo Swing Orchestra track I posted in response to your query shows the metal side, and that which is included in prog Metal I was comparing to others not included in the Prog metal category that have a metal element. I'm sure there is avant metal, but it isn't a subgenre here. Are there just not enough bands of it for us to name it an entire genre, so collabs just bundle them into experimental metal? Or crossover? A lot of it goes into the Experimental Metal category, but Diablo Swing Orchestra is included in the Prog Metal category, and as Cristi mentioned, is called avant-garde metal. You can find bands with metal qualities or metal crossover in Crossover, Heavy Prog, Eclectic Prog, Avant Prog, Prog Related and more. A problem with the site is that we classify bands not albums, and ideally, I think, albums would get multiple labels to describe the music. Many acts could fit various categories. There would be enough but mostly experimental metal fits those purposes, and we already have lots of categories. We will always have problems trying to pigeon-hole bands into categories. I just use the categories now as more of a general guide and expect diversity in every category, and that bands are diverse from album-to-album and even in albums.   By the way, I so wish we had album tagging, but having that would mean a huge overhaul of the site and a different site architecture apparently. Good post. I agree. Also, insightful comments like this of yours are very useful for the "newbies". I can offer a solution for the problem you mentioned. The biography (introduction) part of a band can include the information on their change of style(s); you can read this as a change of genre or subgenre.   I think it wouldn't be too much work and would be very useful. Okay, doing this for all the bands should be demanding, but that can also be handled to a great extent with the help of a thread like the one that forum members mention errors and omissions. As you mentioned, the ultimate solution seems like album tagging, but this could be a good alternative without altering ProgArchives' nature.

Thanks. That would help, good idea. With acts that have changed style from album to album, I have written bios where I get into that, but I've put that at the end, and the bios have been so long that you'd have to click read more just to get to that. Furthermore, it's ended up looking like mini-reviews of each album in some cases tacked onto the bio, and that has been frowned on by some people. I know some bio writers have done a similar thing, but it never became standard practice. Some people put bios out very fast, others like me would spend considerable hours on writing one. Of course if a band coms out with a new album with a new direction then updating would be warranted, and amending the ton o old ones would be a big task. The numbers of people who can edit bios is limited because damage can be done, so less volunteer man-power.

It would nice to have all future bios briefly mention the styles across albums (or key albums, some have really big discographies. Many bios do mention changes in musical direction, and the controversial additions need the most care -- lot of people still don't read the bios and so get confused.

You're right, using E&O would help a lot with this and make it much less work. That way anyone can suggest that info and the E&O team and any Special Collaborators doing the work could help. It's doable. RateYouMusic is a good source for genres, though hardly complete, although I would be uncomfortable just copying what they think over to hear (wouldn't seem ethical) and we'd want to adapt for our particular category usage. Hope I'm making sense, no sleep last night.

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By the way, to grumpyprogfan, regarding those vids I posted in response to your query, after posting the second Diablo Swing Orchestra track, I posted the others that are included in Avant Prog (the Alamaailman Vasarat and Hory-Kone) to hopefully demonstrate the similarities, since you were asking about if DSO fits Progressive Metal. Not sure if you understood what I was getting at from your last post. Those happen to be the two bands that I most liken Diablo to. Whether you consider any of those heavy or Avant, well I thought you could let your own ears be the judge of that, but I see no reason why a band couldn't be both heavy and Avant (Heavy Avant or just heavy on the avant ;) ), and I can think of many examples that I would consider to be both. Maybe I misunderstood your intent.

I don't think one should let the way things are officially categorised here dictate how you yourself should classify music. Of course it helps in discussion if people are talking the same language (use labels the same way so they can understand each other easily). Many bands could fit various categories, and one can give a great many albums various genre and descriptive labels.

If the OP thinks we're going too far off topic, then I will cease such conversation here, though personally, I like digressions in my own topics as long as people are being cordial and seem to be enjoying themselves. I'm generally happy just to see conversation when I make topics and to read people's thoughts.

As for Freak Kitchen, it's been rejected several times. I checked out music by the band years ago but don't really remember the music. Once a band has been rejected, then it can be harder to get in. Rejections happen for different reasons, and one team might accept while another refuses. The team members themselves don't always concur, and in some cases one no vote can reject the whole thing. If a suggestion is not put together very well, detailed and with sound/valid/ persuasive reasoning, that can affect the outcome etc.

FatherChristmas wrote: Logan wrote: Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^Agree, and this thread is for heavy music, not Avant. Let's keep on the subject. But there is avant heavy music. I would say that all of the music I posted above in response to you is quite heavy and avant. And I think that the Diablo Swing Orchestra track I posted in response to your query shows the metal side, and that which is included in prog Metal I was comparing to others not included in the Prog metal category that have a metal element. I'm sure there is avant metal, but it isn't a subgenre here. Are there just not enough bands of it for us to name it an entire genre, so collabs just bundle them into experimental metal? Or crossover?

A lot of it goes into the Experimental Metal category, but Diablo Swing Orchestra is included in the Prog Metal category, and as Cristi mentioned, is called avant-garde metal. You can find bands with metal qualities or metal crossover in Crossover, Heavy Prog, Eclectic Prog, Avant Prog, Prog Related and more.

A problem with the site is that we classify bands not albums, and ideally, I think, albums would get multiple labels to describe the music. Many acts could fit various categories.

There would be enough but mostly experimental metal fits those purposes, and we already have lots of categories. We will always have problems trying to pigeon-hole bands into categories. I just use the categories now as more of a general guide and expect diversity in every category, and that bands are diverse from album-to-album and even in albums.   By the way, I so wish we had album tagging, but having that would mean a huge overhaul of the site and a different site architecture apparently.

Logan wrote: I know one person was upset when I called the band Camel Humped, but it was meant in a good-natured jocular way.

Cristi wrote: Logan wrote: Cristi wrote: Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^Logan, the video you posted "Balrog Boogie" is certainly not prog metal in any way. It is a jazz opera tune with crunch guitar. Does any Diablo Swing Orchestra fit the prog metal category? Kind of a fun song, not crazy about the vocals. What baffles me is that band is classified as prog metal yet Freak Kitchen (a heavy and progressive band) does not have a spot in any category on PA. I suggested them but it was rejected.  Diablo Swing Orchestra are classified as avantgarde metal else where. I've tried getting into them, but can't find any fun, pleasure. I can admire their uniqueness from a distance I guess.  It's a real oddity in the Progressive Metal category, which is why I like it. I still only know the first two albums. I'd say it's much more eclectic and weird/comical than one would expect for that category, and metal riffage is something in the mix of the albums (the two that I know). If Prog metal of any kind, it's certainly not vanilla prog metal. ] I wish people would stop using the word vanilla prog metal. I imagine if anyone will come up with a mocking description for symph-prog or eclectic, RIO etc, that person would not see the end of it.  If vanilla prog metal are those bands inspired by Dream Theater, there are actually a few good ones.  I can list a few for whoever is curious.  Progressive metal has got diverse over the years - There's Pain of Salvation, there's Fates Warning, there's Haken, there's Tesseract, there's Leprous, there's Symphony X, there's Sieges Even, there's Veni Domine (which are doing some sort of progressive doom), there's Disperse (who have done three different sounding albums) and I could go on. All progressive metal, none of them vanilla.

While good music might be said to be in the ear of the behearer, I expect that there are many creative, innovative, unconventional, adventurous, and wack-dog Progressive Metal bands out there. It can be mocking, as vanilla means a boring, conventional/ ordinary/ standard, common old garden flavour in this sort of sense, but I just meant ones that seem to have a typical sound and approach that I associate with bands in the Prog Metal category. No mockery intended. Of course it is commonly used a a pejorative. I mean a kind of seemingly conventional qualities even if there is great diversity in the category.

I like to use the term vanilla Prog because part of being progressive rock was about breaking free of the supposed conventions of the rock lexicon/format, or progressing away from standard elements of rock, to be non-generic, but then Prog becomes this genre with certain expectations and so you get "cookie-cutter" Prog bands that are just imitating the progressiveness and experimentation of others before them. I sometimes think when Prog started to be recognised as a genre it became less progressive on the whole. Then we had established expectations of what could and couldn't be Prog. There are those bands that try to sound Prog, and be accepted as Prog, rather than just trying to do their own thing outside of established conventions.

To me there is vanilla Symph Prog, and bands inspired by RIO bands that are vanilla in that context, and there are bands called avant-garde that are not really avant-garde at all (nor radical or unorthodox considering what came before), just as one might say that not all Prog bands are truly progressive.

While eclectic is a common term, and one might have referred to eclectic prog (adjectival use), the Eclectic Prog category is something that was developed for this site (not a genre, but an eclectic mix of genres). When I was on the team, I liked to call it Mish-Mash Prog. Some involved with the Crossover team liked to call it the Crossdressers category. Various Avant Proggers here wear their pans proudly on their heads after it was called Panhead Prog.

To me vanilla can refer to any music that seems ordinary for its ilk. If a Canterbury band sounds very much like Caravan, I might call that vanilla Canterbury Sound. If a Zeuhl band sounds like Magma's MDK, then I might call that vanilla Zeuhl. Of course one will find similarities in categories, and it's not often a useful label, and less useful if the other doesn't know what qualities you are referencing. I've said vanilla Zeuhl and I like Zeuhl. A category like Krautrock already has a questionable name.

It is true that vanilla metal has been used as an anti Dream Theater thing, partially cause we have had some overly enthusiastic Dream Theater fans in the past, but that can be said of many bands. The kinds of people who would bump and create many, many topics about the same band.

Vanilla is not a clever term, and can be lacking in descriptive power, but parodying band-names, say, is not necessarily ridicule (not that you said it was), nor is parodying genre names. It can be hard to divine intent, unless you know a person really well, and even then.... I tend to avoid sarcasm (mean-spirited ridicule). I know one person was upset when I called the band Camel Humped, but it was meant in a good-natured jocular way. It can be hard to realise when someone is being derogatory, and when it's just light humour. But I digress, since I did not use vanilla in a humorous way (well, actually I did a bit, because it's kind of become memeish here). Ice, ice, baby. Now that is vanilla. Humour also can be in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, that rambling aside, I'll look more into some of those you mentioned. I'm not a big fan of Prog Metal (prefer classic heavy rock), or listen to a lot of it, so it is presumptuous of me to say what is ordinary when it comes to the scenes. I do like plenty of music that has a metal element to it and do have various bands/ albums in every category in PA that I do enjoy.



Edited by Logan - September 24 2020 at 10:12

Logan wrote: Cristi wrote: Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^Logan, the video you posted "Balrog Boogie" is certainly not prog metal in any way. It is a jazz opera tune with crunch guitar. Does any Diablo Swing Orchestra fit the prog metal category? Kind of a fun song, not crazy about the vocals. What baffles me is that band is classified as prog metal yet Freak Kitchen (a heavy and progressive band) does not have a spot in any category on PA. I suggested them but it was rejected.  Diablo Swing Orchestra are classified as avantgarde metal else where. I've tried getting into them, but can't find any fun, pleasure. I can admire their uniqueness from a distance I guess.  It's a real oddity in the Progressive Metal category, which is why I like it. I still only know the first two albums. I'd say it's much more eclectic and weird/comical than one would expect for that category, and metal riffage is something in the mix of the albums (the two that I know). If Prog metal of any kind, it's certainly not vanilla prog metal.

Edited by Cristi - November 29 2024 at 11:26

Grumpyprogfan wrote: ^Logan, the video you posted "Balrog Boogie" is certainly not prog metal in any way. It is a jazz opera tune with crunch guitar. Does any Diablo Swing Orchestra fit the prog metal category? Kind of a fun song, not crazy about the vocals. What baffles me is that band is classified as prog metal yet Freak Kitchen (a heavy and progressive band) does not have a spot in any category on PA. I suggested them but it was rejected.