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Should I give ELP another try?
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verslibre View Drop Down
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ No sh*t Sherlock, Peel was also a massive fan of the Nice.
 

YOU may say "no sh*t," Igor, but I wager there are many people who still haven't a clue about the Peel-TD connection. Wink

The point you missed: Don't let one man's opinion dictate, let alone deter, your musical path.
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^ No sh*t Sherlock, Peel was also a massive fan of the Nice.
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Funny how it's easy to bag on John Peel because he didn't like ELP. Many critics didn't like prog rock — rather, they were selective, they liked some, not all. And many disliked ELP more than their contemporaries.

John Peel named Tangerine Dream's 1973 record (their fourth) Atem "Album of the Year." That gave their next album, the now legendary Phaedra, the ability to hit 15th place on the U.K. Albums Chart virtually on the power of word of mouth (it only sold 6K units in their home base, DEU).

Diff'rent strokes, folks.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I read somewhere....that John Peel once said that 'ELP was a waste of talent and electricity.'
Does that help you decide...?
Shocked


They say John Peel could have been an electrician. What a waste.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I read somewhere....that John Peel once said that 'ELP was a waste of talent and electricity.'
Does that help you decide...?
Shocked

why or how would it help? It's just one man's opinion. 
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I read somewhere....that John Peel once said that 'ELP was a waste of talent and electricity.'
Does that help you decide...?
Shocked
Haha nice one LOL

But honestly I'm enjoying ELP. I'm now listening to the Welcome Back My Friends To The Show That Never Ends live album and it's really good!
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I read somewhere....that John Peel once said that 'ELP was a waste of talent and electricity.'
Does that help you decide...?
Shocked
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I changed my mind.

Don't give ELP another try.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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I have still to hear that one
Though to be fair, I was never that into ELP to begin with so my lust for exploring further pretty much stopped after purchasing Tarkus and sampling Brain Salad Surgery.
Then again if I see it on a music shopping spree and the price is right, it’s mine!
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Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ However its the live version that has the fantastic extended Aquatarkus section. If I was choosing only one ELP album to take to a desert island then it would be the live triple album. The whole of Brain Salad Surgery (minus the most complained prog track of all time Benny the Bouncer) and you also get extended versions of Take a Pebble and Tarkus. My only gripe is that they didn't include the shorter live encore version of Pictures At An Exhibition on the album which was played at the 1974 Anaheim show. Presumably this was because it had already been released in an extended format but I would still have loved to have it.
You mean Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends?
 

indeed
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

The idea of the one desert island disc per band being their triple live is a little easy, but I'd still hesitate to take that over the debut, despite the inclusion of Tarkus.

I'm definitely not a fan of BSS and that Show live album was recorded on that tour, and features all of that album. For a better balance I'd have wanted the A-side featuring something more from the debut, some thing from Pictures and even some track from Trilogy

I don't find it well cut either, with tracks spread over two sides needlessly: if there is nothing you can do about Tarkus and KEN because of their resective live-rendition lengths, Pebble should've be able to fit the whole of the D-side, pushing the ragtime thingie behind Aquatarkus. And of course theCensored CD version does not solve that problemNuke
 

the deluxe reissues are excellent. It doesn't need fixing and not the whole of BSS is included as I pointed out. Also there is track from Trilogy. That was a tricky album to pull off live. Endless Enigma just didn't work and Lakes vocal range was nearly 'shot' by the time they were touring in 73/74 so the track Trilogy became an impossibility (although they never officially performed it live anyway despite a version that is on the net that contradicts this (Keith Emerson didn't consider it to be a proper attempt). My only complaint is that I would rather not have the drum solo parked in KE9 1st impression. 3rd Impression kicks serious ass on this album though and that makes up for it as far as I'm concerned.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ However its the live version that has the fantastic extended Aquatarkus section. If I was choosing only one ELP album to take to a desert island then it would be the live triple album. The whole of Brain Salad Surgery (minus the most complained prog track of all time Benny the Bouncer) and you also get extended versions of Take a Pebble and Tarkus. My only gripe is that they didn't include the shorter live encore version of Pictures At An Exhibition on the album which was played at the 1974 Anaheim show. Presumably this was because it had already been released in an extended format but I would still have loved to have it.
You mean Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends?
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The idea of the one desert island disc per band being their triple live is a little easy, but I'd still hesitate to take that over the debut, despite the inclusion of Tarkus.

I'm definitely not a fan of BSS and that Show live album was recorded on that tour, and features all of that album. For a better balance I'd have wanted the A-side featuring something more from the debut, some thing from Pictures and even some track from Trilogy

I don't find it well cut either, with tracks spread over two sides needlessly: if there is nothing you can do about Tarkus and KEN because of their resective live-rendition lengths, Pebble should've be able to fit the whole of the D-side, pushing the ragtime thingie behind Aquatarkus. And of course theCensored CD version does not solve that problemNuke
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^ However its the live version that has the fantastic extended Aquatarkus section. If I was choosing only one ELP album to take to a desert island then it would be the live triple album. The whole of Brain Salad Surgery (minus the most complained prog track of all time Benny the Bouncer) and you also get extended versions of Take a Pebble and Tarkus. My only gripe is that they didn't include the shorter live encore version of Pictures At An Exhibition on the album which was played at the 1974 Anaheim show. Presumably this was because it had already been released in an extended format but I would still have loved to have it.

Edited by richardh - April 23 2020 at 00:07
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Yes!
Try the titletrack off Tarkus and thank me later
That is the only ELP I listen to these days and it never lets me down. I also dig the debut but haven’t really spun it for..well years. Tarkus is pretty much all I need when I want a little ELP in my daily diet.
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Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Should I give ELP another try?
I like their first album, and that's the only one I kept. The other albums I've heard in the past were too much trying to mix in classical influences for my taste. I like it when bands use techniques derived from classical music, but I don't like it when rock bands try to actually sound classical or downright play classical pieces. To me it's like orchestras playing pop/rock music. It's gimmicky.
But with all the praise I see you guys give ELP, I'm thinking I should give them another try. But what album?


Well ELP is certainly an essential prog group (the one that brought pretentiousness and pomposity to it), but I'm like you, all I kept is their first album (though I never spin it), though I still own a Mawell XL-IIS compilation of their stuff.

Maybe unlike you, I did listen to them a fair bit in the 70's and somewhat in the 80's (ELPowell), but never really paid attention to what they did in the 90's, so I know the "essential ELP" fairly well, and never get the irge to relisten to it. Though I certainly won't zap radio-station if I hear one of their tracks, if I never hear ELP in my life, I think I'm fine.

But.... Should you give them another try?
Well if you're not really famliliar with their other albums as I am, why not??
Otherwise, if you remember Tarkus & BSS and don't feel the urge to relisten, then don't

Get on YouTube (I'm sure they got full albums on there) and see what they propose and read a few PA reviews to help you get in their music if needed.
But otherwise it's not like you'll be a lesser proghead if you skip them altogether.



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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

I like their first album, and that's the only one I kept. The other albums I've heard in the past were too much trying to mix in classical influences for my taste. I like it when bands use techniques derived from classical music, but I don't like it when rock bands try to actually sound classical or downright play classical pieces. To me it's like orchestras playing pop/rock music. It's gimmicky.
But with all the praise I see you guys give ELP, I'm thinking I should give them another try. But what album?

I dont love ELP. I am not a fan, but I listen to their firsts 4 albums 4-5 times a year.

My personal opinion?

Nice (Ars Longa) and EL&P were very very important for the history of prog, especially for symphonic prog, so for my knowledge was important to listen to them.

I is a good album, the most accesible, and maybe the best. The beginning, the firsts two songs are beautiful,

but the rest ... not so much.

Tarkus is a good album, includes their best elaborate suite (but the side with conventional songs is modest).

Pictures is their worse album, embarassing.

Trilogy isn't bad, but it's modest.

Brain Salad is a good albu. May you like it? ... oh well ... it depends ... it contains their mastodontic suite Karn Evil 9: a great effort but... Is it a masterpiece? No, in my opinion, no. For 12 minutes it is very forced, almost irritating.

Maybe you can like Tarkus (the suite) or Brain Salad (The songs or the Suite)...

In short: in my opinion EL&P have not published any real masterpiece bu their contribution to symphonic prog was relevant and every albums (and suite) contains some genial passages or some beautiful songs. Greg Lake is a wonderful singer and every time it's a pleasure listen to his voice. Their problem was not try to actually sound classical or downright play classical pieces, because most of the time they did a good work with single songs (not in Pictures), their problems were two:

1) They were not great composers in terms of melody (Greg Lake was the best)
2) They exagerate with virtuosistic passages all together, especially Emerson and Palmer: in this way
they produced a lot of smoke but little roast, they distract the listener to the theme of the music and transform most emotion into din.

Ok, this is my opinion, tastes are tastes, EL&P lovers please dont shoot on the piano man, pardon, on the writer!

PS It has happened also in the history of classical music: hardly a great virtuoso was also a great composer, because he tends to slobber, to exceed in virtuosity rather than in composition.

 

Actually very broadly speaking I agree with an awful lot of that and I am a fan! ELP were far from perfect and in my opinion they never tried to be. Emerson was very into 'ideas' and tried not only be inventive but also re-inventive. Apparently (and this was once explained to an audience by the keyboard player in one of the tribute bands) he would break from convention quite deliberately in how he wrote music.
The Brain Salad Surgery album was a breaking point for many. Emerson and Palmer were challenging each other and it does feel like a race at times. That said it still seems very unique that they did this as I don't remember many bands approaching music this way. It was very personality driven progressive rock but much more emphasis on the 'rock'. Perhaps they transcended the genre to an extent because they could pitch up their tent with the likes of Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. Can you really imagine Gentle Giant or VDDG headlining a massive festival like The California Jam? I'm not convinced though that this really satisfied Keith Emerson. Works was really what he wanted to do. Have you heard his Piano Concerto? I would be very interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks.  


I believe that EL&P had a desecrating attitude towards classical music, that is, they exasperated it with furious arrangements, almost heavy metal, in fact I have read several times that we can consider them 
the punks of prog.  
But if you act on intensity (like punk groups), you should concentrate the emotion on few notes, if you put together intensity and a lot of notes, continuos changes of melodies, variations on the theme (like prog groups), you create confusion, a music satured and sustained that it's difficult to follow.

I've never listened to Piano Concerto by K. Emerson. Do you mean this piece?


Tomorrow I will listen to it.

And even this:



 

yes that is the Piano Concerto. Movement One is very inspired by Aaron Copeland ( He also named one of his sons Aaron)

Wow that Cal Jam is amazing. I've seen some of the footage but not that much before. I will settle down with a beer or two this weekend and give that a good watch
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Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

No. 

Go off and do something else. Trying to convince yourself that you like something is a waste of time. ELP has loads of classical influences. Spend a few minutes on YouTube and form your own opinion. It'll take less time than other people spend on a thread replying to you, coincidentally wasting their time as well. 
I waste my time as I please Wink

ELP is not a band that I have dismissed. I like their first album. And I like to read what others have to say about it. People who can give me a better further introduction than Youtube. And this is a discussion forum, so having a discussion is not wasting time right? People could easily choose not to reply.

Someone earlier in the thread said "Life’s too short. Why not listen to things you like instead?". And of course that's true. But I think part of being a fan of an adventurous genre like prog rock is sometimes putting some effort into exploring music and trying to "get it". And reading reviews and having discussions can further give some understanding and depth to the music. Otherwise we could all just put up some pop music and just "consume" music.
 

Dude, you just ask the questions you want to ask. if no one gets back, you have your answer. Like you said this is discussion forum.. if people want to discuss, great. if they don't then (written) silence speaks volumes. There's as many positive people on here as grumpies.
I'm not really sure what you mean. I did get a lot of helpful replies and interesting discussion, apart from the two members suddenly barking at each other on the previous page. But stuff like that always happens on the internet. LOL

Anyway I just finished listening to Brain Salad Surgery. Benny The Bouncer was a brief moment of silliness but I enjoyed the whole album. And Karn Evil 9 is a very good track, maybe a tad long-winded.
 

Er.. yes, sorry about thatEmbarrassed. I was trying to say that I agree with your reply to Davesax1965. Its up to the individual replying (or considering replying) to decide if its a good use of their time and bad manners to accuse you of wasting their time. Was that any clearer? if not, sorry againWink

Mental note to self: never never try and write anything online (particularly pompous nonsense) after a hard days work and a couple of glasses of homemade wineLOL
Yes, perfectly clear! Pretty weird to go online, spend time on a forum and then accuse people they've wasted your time.

How's the wine? Is it regular grape wine?
 

Its very nice, thank you.. I make it out of allsorts of fruits, flowers, even vegetables and leavesLOL it sounds bonkers, but you can basically produce alcohol from yeast, sugar and pretty much any organic substance.. if you're desperate! of course the ideas are refined to get something that tastes nice and looks good! I think its what used to be called 'Country wines' as distinct from 'Wine' which is made from grape or grape juice extract. I have made grape wines from a white grape I have growing in the garden (and for a short while I ran a very small vineyard about 20 years ago) and I find its the most difficult (or most skill needed) to get a satisfactory wine from.. but I have produced some very decent sparkling white wineWink

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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Tendiwa Tendiwa wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

No. 

Go off and do something else. Trying to convince yourself that you like something is a waste of time. ELP has loads of classical influences. Spend a few minutes on YouTube and form your own opinion. It'll take less time than other people spend on a thread replying to you, coincidentally wasting their time as well. 
I waste my time as I please Wink

ELP is not a band that I have dismissed. I like their first album. And I like to read what others have to say about it. People who can give me a better further introduction than Youtube. And this is a discussion forum, so having a discussion is not wasting time right? People could easily choose not to reply.

Someone earlier in the thread said "Life’s too short. Why not listen to things you like instead?". And of course that's true. But I think part of being a fan of an adventurous genre like prog rock is sometimes putting some effort into exploring music and trying to "get it". And reading reviews and having discussions can further give some understanding and depth to the music. Otherwise we could all just put up some pop music and just "consume" music.
 

Dude, you just ask the questions you want to ask. if no one gets back, you have your answer. Like you said this is discussion forum.. if people want to discuss, great. if they don't then (written) silence speaks volumes. There's as many positive people on here as grumpies.
I'm not really sure what you mean. I did get a lot of helpful replies and interesting discussion, apart from the two members suddenly barking at each other on the previous page. But stuff like that always happens on the internet. LOL

Anyway I just finished listening to Brain Salad Surgery. Benny The Bouncer was a brief moment of silliness but I enjoyed the whole album. And Karn Evil 9 is a very good track, maybe a tad long-winded.
 

Er.. yes, sorry about thatEmbarrassed. I was trying to say that I agree with your reply to Davesax1965. Its up to the individual replying (or considering replying) to decide if its a good use of their time and bad manners to accuse you of wasting their time. Was that any clearer? if not, sorry againWink

Mental note to self: never never try and write anything online (particularly pompous nonsense) after a hard days work and a couple of glasses of homemade wineLOL
Yes, perfectly clear! Pretty weird to go online, spend time on a forum and then accuse people they've wasted your time.

How's the wine? Is it regular grape wine?
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Pictures at an Exhibition - ‘ nuff said !!   
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