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Why is the Soft Machine missing in the Top 100?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mirakaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 03:37
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

The other thing that occurred to me is that albums become a lot less memorable when they don't have a proper name. I really hate it when artists just go 1,2,3 etc. WTF . Pick a proper name ffs. For this reason I'm more likely to play Bundles than an album just called 3 or Third.


At least it's better than Tony Banks, who's been doing the same thing in recent times, except in reverse order LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 03:31
Indeed
The perfect warm up music for Bloodsport, Kickboxer and Double Impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tendiwa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 03:27
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

1- Because it is not your top 100.

2- Because it is based on ratings.

3- Because tastes are subjective.

4- Because you could make a thread about any other band that you enjoy and is not in the top 100

5- Because I thought everything listed above was obvious already?

Big smile

Pretty much

We all have our faves and some of these are not universally revered.
4) in particular drives this fact home. I’ve seen this type of thread for a LOT of bands ranging from Van Damme Generator, Gentle Giant, ELP and even Genesis to Barclay James Harvest, Nektar, Kansas and Can.
When you’re a huge fan of X band and consider it to be one of the seminal acts - and you don’t see any of their albums in the top 100...you either start a thread like this or play said album to your spouse and learn firsthand about different tastebuds
Van Damme Generator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 01:44
Because the Machine never answered to the question : I am not a robot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 01:13
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

The other thing that occurred to me is that albums become a lot less memorable when they don't have a proper name. I really hate it when artists just go 1,2,3 etc. WTF . Pick a proper name ffs. For this reason I'm more likely to play Bundles than an album just called 3 or Third.

If an album is great, it can be nameless and no one cares (like Led Zeppelin ZoSo or IV or whatever it is).

And Black Sabbath Vol. 4 is and always will be Black Sabbath Vol. 4 (and you can picture the album cover as soon as you mention Vol. 4). Of course, Led Zeppelin I, II or III come to mind as albums one knows right off the bat as not needing a proper title.

But it can get out of hand. Once you get past the first VI or VII Chicago albums, it gets confusing. I think they're up to XXXVI or something. One needs an abacus after a while.
 

but your talking about Black Sabbath and Led Zep . They could get away with anything back in the day but that also flows through to the present.IMO 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2020 at 09:26
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

1- Because it is not your top 100.

2- Because it is based on ratings.

3- Because tastes are subjective.

4- Because you could make a thread about any other band that you enjoy and is not in the top 100

5- Because I thought everything listed above was obvious already?

Big smile

Pretty much

We all have our faves and some of these are not universally revered.
4) in particular drives this fact home. I’ve seen this type of thread for a LOT of bands ranging from Van Damme Generator, Gentle Giant, ELP and even Genesis to Barclay James Harvest, Nektar, Kansas and Can.
When you’re a huge fan of X band and consider it to be one of the seminal acts - and you don’t see any of their albums in the top 100...you either start a thread like this or play said album to your spouse and learn firsthand about different tastebuds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwordser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2020 at 09:26
THIRD has been in the top 100, at least 2-3 times since I've been watching the top 100 on and off (since 2008); its one that tends to bounce around the 100 mark.  So, it wouldn't surprise me if it gets there again-- currently pretty close at 107.  I'm a fan, and agree: it should be in; I classify it with a rare set of albums that has a brilliant uniqueness. 

Yet you can see why its not quite making it with comments in this thread of folks who have tried but just cant get into it--they're going to tend to rate it lower, which is especially going to keep a cap on it if those people are "Prog Reviewers" or "Senior Members" (the way its currently set up/weighted).

Or, perhaps you could blame the introduction of a few albums from the 2000's, now in the top 100; there are 12 as of this writing, most of which I don't consider as good as Third, but so it goes.  At least those newer ones tend to fall over time.




Z
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo_II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2020 at 06:07
Just glad Zappa did not do the One Two Three Four...Twenty Three Twenty Four Twenty Five....Thirty Six Thirty Seven Thirty Eight....Forty One Forty Two Forty Three..Fifty Four Fifty Six....(sigh)..Sixty One Sixty Two              

Edited by tamijo_II - March 22 2020 at 06:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2020 at 05:17
1- Because it is not your top 100.

2- Because it is based on ratings.

3- Because tastes are subjective.

4- Because you could make a thread about any other band that you enjoy and is not in the top 100

5- Because I thought everything listed above was obvious already?

Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2020 at 03:35
Chikaka 42 is da bee’s knees

At least Soft Machine changed it up later on. Their most recent Hidden Details would’ve been Twelve otherwise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2020 at 02:42
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

The other thing that occurred to me is that albums become a lot less memorable when they don't have a proper name. I really hate it when artists just go 1,2,3 etc. WTF . Pick a proper name ffs. For this reason I'm more likely to play Bundles than an album just called 3 or Third.

If an album is great, it can be nameless and no one cares (like Led Zeppelin ZoSo or IV or whatever it is).

And Black Sabbath Vol. 4 is and always will be Black Sabbath Vol. 4 (and you can picture the album cover as soon as you mention Vol. 4). Of course, Led Zeppelin I, II or III come to mind as albums one knows right off the bat as not needing a proper title.

But it can get out of hand. Once you get past the first VI or VII Chicago albums, it gets confusing. I think they're up to XXXVI or something. One needs an abacus after a while.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tdfloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 23:20
Bought Third  because I heard about them but didn't know anything they played.  It's one of those albums that are rated very highly but just don't work for me.  I have tried it many times over the years but now realize its never going to click with me.  Just like Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, which I played just yesterday and have decided I will never play it again.  There is nothing wrong with not liking an album and with these two, I felt I was missing something.  They just will never work for me.  

I don't really care for the first 2 albums either but I really appreciate and still spin their latter day albums.  I have plenty of time for Fourth onward.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2020 at 15:55
The top 100 has a lot to do with knownness. Third is a masterpiece to me, and I love the first three albums especially, but I also like subsequent ones. I think Soft Machine has not been as popular because it is not as easily accessible for most. It's not been as mainstream to my knowledge. I'd say Caravan is the most known, and Camel too for those who include it as some do, as part of the Canterbury Scene/ Sound.

While Third would make my top 100, I wouldn't expect it to make most Prog fans top 100. For me that albums took a while to fully open up. I loved ""Slightly All the Time" from fist spin, but the rest not as much. Then "Moon in June" became my favourite (still is one of my favourite "songs") and I loved "Out-Bloody-Rageous" but "Facelift" left me cold.

As mentioned, it's just doesn't have as many ratings as the top 100 albums do. Since I use customised filters when using the chart, it likely will show up when I search it.

James, I know you stated in one of my topics CLICK that you find "RYM's ranking to be completely arbitrary and worthless", but it's interesting that the Progressive Rock chart at RYM (using progressive rock as a filter since it's a general music site) has Third ranked at number 25, the debut at 97 and the second at 101. Not that ratings are of much value to me, other than how I rate (i.e. value) something (and that itself is subject to change).

Edited by Logan - February 11 2020 at 15:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whamdaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2020 at 14:15
the first soft machine album is a psych classic, better than Pipers IMO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2020 at 08:42
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Going from my experience its completely pointless trying to have a dialogue with 'Pedro' ( I don't even know where that nickname came from). I find most of his stuff just a load of patronising gibberish even if he obviously has a really good detailed knowledge of prog rock. Just a crying shame that he is had to derail so many threads. I wonder why Admin tolerates this nonsense quite frankly.

Your comment has no art in it, and the sadness that it seems to express, is nothing but an issue with someone that you do not understand and can not relate to, because you are not willing to discuss innovative arts ... and instead prefer  to do this with a crowd that can only "agree" with you.

It doesn't matter if "ADMIN" tolerates this or not ... I have done more, and continue to do so, for progressive music, than you can imagine, but because you feel belittled by it, you make it look like I am the nonsense person ... and the one inventing ideas and comments.

I would tell you where "Moshkito" came from ... but since being literary/artistic is not a part of your dogma, I don't see the point!

Best wishes ... it's a shame that all friends can do is kiss each others ______ so they can feel like they can relate ... to a larger audience so they can feel more important. I'm not here to feel important or to glorify my whatever! AND you know it, but it rankles you that I can say something, and you DON'T, except to comment on the person who DID say something!


Edited by moshkito - February 11 2020 at 08:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2020 at 08:34
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

...
P.S. Don't you think that the experience of watching & enjoying improvisational artistic expression is a preference, that is, something that not every human being shares equally?  

NO.

If you appreciate the art form, be it music or anything else, seeing someone create a piece or "live through it" is a learning experience for you and I ... with the only problem being that "reviews" have already killed that work because it is not about the "audience' and what it expects from the artist.

Look ... you don't go to see a Misha (Barishnikov) and expect to see ... what you want ... you probably would if it were Nureyev and Fonteyn doing their famous duet ... but in general, you didn't go to see Yehudi Menuhin and Ravi Shankar to hear some bits from Mozart's 69th Violin Concerto or Ravi's 134th Etude for Sitar! You go for the excitement of the music possibilities ... and HERE IS WHERE THE "ROCK" audiences fail ... they only see the same thing, and not expand their inner sights.

I got to see Picasso do his thing ... and I have been near many bands, and traveled with 2 of them, and there was a massive difference ... and one of these was not interested in comments and concentrated on something he saw, and he would not have worried if the guitar was out of tune or not ... he would still manage to create his piece! The other two were very fine for me, no worries there, and I hold them dear to my heart, but they can never replace the incredible sight of a Yehudi Menuhin, a Ravi Shankar, a Misha, and some artists that were above the popular front ... and gave us something that you had never seen before!

I have spent my whole life around folks that express their inner side ... they work in the internal side of things, and the audience has no say in what their work is ... they do their "inner movie" ... just like you might not be able to ... and this is the definition of a lot of art ...not something that copies something else ... and this is what you learn when you are in a house with 40K books of literature from 3 languages mostly, and you RECOGNIZE QUICKLY why they are there ... it's not because of the fans, or because they sold more books ... it's because of the art form itself ... 

AND THIS IS WHAT SOME FOLKS HERE CAN NOT APPRECIATE ... and spend their time making sure they say something totally empty and invisible about something they have not and will not experience!

PA is a magnificent opportunity to see these things and learn from them ... so what do we do? Ignore it all and go back to the standard top of the pops and what we want them to do ... so much for an art form, because as the old codger friend of ours would say ... this is all poppycock pop music, anyway ... and sadly, it is, and the folks can't see it.

I wish/hope to elevate the artists and pure creators of art ... not bring them down because of sales ... since no one here (just about!!!) can relate to someone doing their art, because it's all they know and because it's all they want to do! has nothing to do with anything else, including some folks trying to make me feel guilty because this or that guy can't even feed his wife and kid ... neither did many folks before him for hundreds of years ... and we end up remembering their art!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2020 at 01:37
For me the Soft Machine phase. in which the albums from Third to Six were released, is a high point of music.
Apart from these 4 albums, which are all excellent, I also recommend the several Live Albums (including of course the BBC sessions), which were released from that time span on CD meanwhile. There are some further great tracks on them next to several improvisations, and the well known album pieces often sound different from concert to concert. It's all very entertaining stuff.

Seven is a less interesting album, but the early stuff, some kind of Avantgarde Pop, is also fun to hear.


Edited by Grubert - February 11 2020 at 05:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 23:49
Going from my experience its completely pointless trying to have a dialogue with 'Pedro' ( I don't even know where that nickname came from). I find most of his stuff just a load of patronising gibberish even if he obviously has a really good detailed knowledge of prog rock. Just a crying shame that he is had to derail so many threads. I wonder why Admin tolerates this nonsense quite frankly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 13:29
RE^
Pedro, I think our differing perspectives are a perfect example of the microcosm of the human experience: you seem to come from an insider's point of view while I come from the realm of the aforementioned "aristocratic dilettante." Also, my focus on the arts was never as significant or obsessive (never career-orienting) as to go as deeply into the "scene" as you and several other much-better-informed personages on this site are. I respect and enjoy your "insider's" perspective--I learn a lot; you make me think far outside the box of my own meager perspectives. Still, I wonder if the percentage of artists able to "make a living" at their craft would be as great as it is were it not for the common, small-minded "needs" of "fans" like me and other "aristocratic" patrons?

P.S. Don't you think that the experience of watching & enjoying improvisational artistic expression is a preference, that is, something that not every human being shares equally?  


Edited by BrufordFreak - February 10 2020 at 13:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2020 at 12:51
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

...
In order to garner attention, notoriety, and favor/food/money, musically-expressive men found that if they created riffs, ditties, or "songs" that people would/could recognize that their esteem and, naturally, prosperity increased.
...

I disagree. I have been into expressive, experimental and all the weirdness that rock music has tried ... and almost none of it has as much to show me, or LIVE within my memory as the Bernard Herrmann Sci-Fi soundtracks, or the experiments of Beaver & Krause, or the soundtrack for Forbidden Planet ... way before Tangerine Dream even knew what a synthesizer was ... but many years later they paid their tribute!

I had heard and seen, Sun Ra, Miles, and many blacks in Chicago (they visited Madison a lot -- only 3 hours up the road) doing blues, harmonica and above all JAZZ, which for some obscure reason Chicago is not even considered a jazz town! And a night with Miles in 1967 or 1968, was a night that never ended, and the night I saw him he played "one" piece of music for an hour, then asked if he could take a break to get a drink of water, and then came back and gave you one more piece that was an hour long ... I can't even say, or tell you if these were pieces fro various other things in the records or not ... but I have never seen a recording of his long stuff ... because America is about SONGS ... and everyone hates the long stuff that is never the same ... and radio, in America is the worst, when it comes to that ... even in 1968, in Madison one of the better known jerks would play a Jimi song, and immediately turn around and say ... enough politics and heavy stuff and play yummy yummy bs right after it ... the disrespect for the music and its meaning was scary ... totally scary ... and no one did anything about it! Trust me we tried. 

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

...
Audiences move toward an artist because of the familiar emotion-provoking themes that these artists have created--be it one memorable "hit" or a particular sound (like the unique and refreshing sound of early Soft Machine). 
...
The improvisational bits that artists are able to squeeze into their live performances are only permitted/tolerated in proportion to the esteem that the audience member(s) hold for that artist. 
...

Weird ... no one that I know, and specially the folks that 46 years later still talk about Space Pirate Radio because they heard all that far out and weird and different stuff ... has EVER complained about the improvisational anything, from Tangerine Dream to Klaus Schulze, to long cuts from many bands around the world.

I think that you are projecting something that you prefer to know and "understand" if you see those elements. 

At that time, I was already into theater, film and directing ... and the most experimental of things were ALWAYS the best everywhere, and to this day, folks that say things like you just did, have a way to prevent an Alexandro Jodorowski, a Luis Bunuel, a Peter Brook, even a Terry Gilliam (later) from doing what they do best ... which is work within a "MOMENT" that has no demarcation lines, and there were many theater groups that completely blew your idea of theater inside out ... like THE LIVING THEATER ... and ended up doing some memorable stuff that still stands up today as truly exceptional. 

Rock music, and a lot of other music, can only counter with "songs" and their fame, and appreciation with a "closed audience" ... the FANs! The talent was not there ... because if it were there would be no reason for them not to show it!

What made SM famous and exceptional was their complete disdain for form, clear in their first albums, with the exception of one piece, which I think was the one that helped get them more attention ... and it is the 1,2,3 bit ... and more than likely it was used in the "Tonight We All Love in London" when they were being completely ignored and they break into a jig to jolt the audience into waking up ... until then, it's like every one was star gazing ... and both YOU AND I would likely do something similar if we were caught in a situation playing, and being totally ignored ... maybe even pulling off a Flea ... just to get some attention and shake the cobwebs off people's ears!  It's bits and pieces that deserve a movie ... 

Experimental music is just that, and this was the reason why there were so many TD bootlegs for a long time, because it was difficult and nearly impossible to get the stuff set up again, and then prepared to do something they had done ... it was literally impossible for Chris Franke (example) for a couple of years to be able to duplicate his sequencing! By the time Stratosfear was here, it was way better, and the synths started having some memory to work with, but generally the stuff was still different ... and you can witness the two live albums from that time ... and Live in America is a perfect example of how difficult it was to redo anything.

Again, the saddest thing, is to consider that SM was about "songs" ... it wasn't ... but, you are right, specially in America ... the fans would want to hear one or two pieces from the THIRD exactly as it is on the album ... and it was NEVER EVER going to happen ... but we can't accept that and in fact, hate it ... because our favorite moments would either not be there, or something else would be.

Please allow music to be "free" of its chains and forms. It is the sickest thing ever done to the human spirit of creativity! Censorship through the eyes of the fans and popular sales! And so many folks can't even see themselves caught in that web!


Edited by moshkito - February 10 2020 at 13:03
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