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Topic ClosedIs Sgt Pepper Prog?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 11:15
There is one rock song on Sgt Pepper. 1! and that is the title track. Now how on earth could this album then be the first prog album? Pet Sounds contains about the same amount of rock.
There were literally thousands of progressive albums being made before either Sgt Pepper and Pet Sounds...but like those they too weren't rock albums. 
When we talk about prog rock I think we need to remember the rock part of the equation...or else we're back to the likes of Stravinski, Stockhausen, Coltrane, Charlie Parker and Ligeti who all made progressive albums before The Beatles and The Beach Boys. 
All of the above mentioned artists influenced prog rock on a wide scale, but that does not make them prog either. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 11:03
^Yes, Sgt. P. is pretty proto in my book, but the progressive authorities at Wikipedia (now has that for an oxymoron) state that the album, along with Revolver and Pet Sounds, is progressive Pop. Not to confused with symphonic Pop! Now I'm confused!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 10:17
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"We've derailed this thread long enough"

Speak for yourself, Steve.

Some threads need derailing. 

Quite right. But I apologize for derailing the train of thought that was off-track and soon as the OP left the station.

*Cues up "Locomotive Breath"*

In any case, I believe Sgt. Pepper's was "progressive" for the time without being "prog" per se. Juxtaposing a jaunty little McCartney ditty about personal hygiene in the middle of a surreal Lennon composition about the death of a beer baron's son isn't necessarily "prog". What the Beatles did in both Revolver and Sgt. Pepper's was to bring pop music to a level hitherto unknown to the people of this area (but destined to take the place of Chuck Berry in rock mythology).

The recording techniques and innovations they brought to the studio made possible albums like In the Court of the Crimson King and Dark Side of the Moon. It's safe to say Sgt. Pepper's brought a recording revolution to the studio that influenced Hendrix, Robert Fripp, Alan Parsons, and even Brian Wilson, who was driven mad just trying to keep up. The Beatles contribution to World Music (and I would suggest "Within You Without You" was revolutionary in that Harrison actually adhered to Hindustani classical music modes and scales in the composition, rather than just throw in a sitar and tabla for effect), and the later prog use of mellotron, tape loops and eccentric instrumentation (harmonium and glockenspiel!) found in "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite" and "Strawberry Fields Forever", was cause enough for a whole generation of prog rock musicians to be indebted.






Edited by The Dark Elf - January 30 2018 at 10:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 10:04
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^...The Beach Boys....?
People often say that....I simply don't get it. 
Any of those mentioned above...Days of Future Past....Procol's first ....The Nice-Ars ...all could qualify......but ITCOTCK will always be the one in my mind that started the prog craze.
Yeah Doc, David and I are of that rare (supper rare?) breed that thinks that the Beach Boys were proto prog. What the hell, it keeps things interesting, if nothing else!

Edited by SteveG - January 31 2018 at 05:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 09:58
Right back at ya! And those are the best prog lyrics I've ever seen!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 09:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 Hopefully by that time, Greg (Dark Elf) will develop some wit and make his mock lyrics actually funny. As talented blues guitarist are not known for brilliant lyrics, I won't hold my breath. But then again, why should they?

My, old farts get quite touchy! LOL in my defense, lyric-wise, all that is required to be a prog lyricist is to repeat the words "Close to the Edge" or "And You and I" approximately 436 times in the span of 10 to 12 minutes, and VOILA! You are a poet laureate of the genre.

Old farts
Bitching the toaster burnt 
Their Pop-tarts.
Winter complainers, 
The old ghosts --
Silently typing the same sullen posts
Of their old prog in a cold fog
Of the old farts.

Love ya, Steve.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 08:34
^...The Beach Boys....?
People often say that....I simply don't get it. 
Any of those mentioned above...Days of Future Past....Procol's first ....The Nice-Ars ...all could qualify......but ITCOTCK will always be the one in my mind that started the prog craze.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 07:49
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Oh we're nitpicking first prog band?   I'm afraid if Beach Boys take that prize.

Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 07:05
Yep, Brubeck came up with the meter for Blue Rondo a la Turk after listening to Turkish musicians playing in 9/8 time. 

Unusual time signatures or scales do not make a prog rock piece. As Easy Money says, unusual time sigs and scales have been around since time immemorial. Western modal music is based on ancient Greek ideas. 

They didn't have Mellotrons, either. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 06:58
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

^ oh we're nitpicking first prog band.  I'm afraid Dave Brubeck takes that prize.

let's not forget what prog was about boys and girls.. and frankly.. studio improvements aside...  neither did what Brubeck did in 1959.  Create what we associate MUSICALLY to be prog. Metric complexity, atypical arrangements, fearsome virtuosity, and diverse influence...


Metric complexity hardly begins with Brubeck, besides the music of Africa, Middle East, India, Eastern Europe and Indonesia, you have jazz musicians like Max Roach who could play rhythms far beyond Brubeck's gang. Bill Evans and his group slip in and out of odd meters superimposed over 4/4 at will, almost telapathicaly (sp).
Brubeck played odd meters in a way that was easy for Westerners to hear and understand, which is similar to what prog rockers do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 06:47
Oh go on, let's have an interesting conversation, then, although the thread is ill advised. (Steve. ;-) ) 

Sergeant Peppers is quite a fantastic album which popped out of nowhere, a real ground breaker. I think the tracks on it are so varied, encompassing pop, psychedelia, creative sound effects, that it's difficult to put an absolute label on it (and I hate labels anyway). I first remember hearing it in about 1970 (I was five at the time) and thinking that it sounded amazing. 

If only modern bands could come up with such groundbreaking albums. 

Is it prog ? - I'm honestly, honestly not bothered. That point might have come across. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 20:23
And while we're on it, that first Procol Harum is not to be underestimated

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 19:52
it is the first hard core... beyond a shadow of a doubt (can't really argue otherwise) group and album.. where it gets fun is trying to beat Emerson and the boys.....

Sgt Peppers?.. yeah maybe..  but in my mind the obvious album and group that one could argue persuasively, passionately AND intelligently both for and against would be the Moodies and Days of Future Passed. Much more than anything the Beatles did or the Beach Boys.. that was was closest if not squarely within the realm of what would soon be known as prog rock and the benchmarks which very quickly came to define it.. and it was fusing rock and European classical music.


Edited by micky - January 29 2018 at 19:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 19:37
^ i'd tend to agree when it comes to symph-oriented British prog

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 19:15
oh of course there was a first 'prog band'... The Nice... as well as putting out the first true prog album a year before ITCOTCK.

Edited by micky - January 29 2018 at 19:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 19:13
Yep, it's a vicious circle, which I guess is why most of us stopped debating it--  it was a process: there was no first prog band.




Edited by Atavachron - January 29 2018 at 19:14
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 18:39
^ oh we're nitpicking first prog band.  I'm afraid Dave Brubeck takes that prize.

let's not forget what prog was about boys and girls.. and frankly.. studio improvements aside...  neither did what Brubeck did in 1959.  Create what we associate MUSICALLY to be prog. Metric complexity, atypical arrangements, fearsome virtuosity, and diverse influence...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 17:22
^ Oh we're nitpicking first prog band?   I'm afraid if Beach Boys take that prize.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 17:08
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

the Sergeant was prog before there was prog, but it ain't no more.


Nope, Zappa, The Nice and King Crimson where prog before there was prog. The Beatles where still pop rock on Sgt Pepper
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2018 at 06:55
Of course he is.......grumpy old, naivy and a heluva pain in the ass character ..ha ha haha
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