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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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To get back to the topic of Syd, my subjective impressions are one of an artist, that aside from his innovations and unique guitar playing, is of a person that was immensely likeable. Syd was mercurial, impish and was not trying to disturb you with his music. Yes, Astronomy Domine was scary and clever, but was also scary and fun. Very much like a scary rollercoaster ride. Syd was not trying to leave you scarred for life. His form of psychedelia was unique in this regard and I suggest that's one key reason for his high esteem among his devoted fans.
Edited by SteveG - April 12 2017 at 08:20 |
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brainstormer ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
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You do always have to ask what did music sound like before this person arrived.
It seems like every very innovative musician always had a background in other arts, as did Barrett. All the arts are connected, when they're great.
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Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
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Pelata ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2010 Location: NC-USA Status: Offline Points: 364 |
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I think Syd Barrett is a case of perspective. Surely he connects with people in the modern era, but when he and his music first arrived? I'm sure it blew some minds and more than a few gaskets.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10686 |
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You could also add that Hendrix was held in high esteem by most 'prog' guitarists, particularly Mr Fripp. There is a reason why Hendrix was a fifth member of the Soft Machine way back when, and a frequent jam session partner with Keith Emerson. To know these things you have to get away from the mainstream press that focuses on drug use and other nonsense and read the accounts of the musicians themselves, such as books by Robert Wyatt and Eddie Kramer.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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...and that is how you laugh someone out of the playground without making them feel bad.
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axeman ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 13 2008 Location: Michigan, US Status: Offline Points: 235 |
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His style was raucous, blues-based rock, so it's more raw and has more slop in it. He was more effect than technical display--except on songs like Little Wing. But he could do things with it that other people tried to match and failed. You have to know how many different finger positions were in one of his signature slide mordants, and how effortlessly they blend together in sound. And yet, you can watch Jimi on tape take a breath from singing and throw effortless fills in Also, like any ground-breaker, kids picking up the guitar, started copying his technique. And so enough of his innovations are within the toolkit of a standard player these days. It's like watching Citizen Kane and noticing that you don't see anything that modern filmmakers don't do. And that's 100% true. But Well's techniques started to define film-making. (Still plenty of filmmakers these days don't construct mundane scenes from 4 overlays and glass mattes).
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-John
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Dellinger ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12816 |
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Well, I still don't fully understand the great hype on Jimi Hendrix. I just don't hear the greatness of his guitar playing, from the little I have heard, specially from his studio versions. Later, having heard some live albums, I think I find his playing there is much more interesting. However, I still prefer my prog guitar players. |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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It's an interesting one. Hendrix famously toured with Syd's Floyd in 1967 though was somewhat dismissive of their music and didn't have anything to say about Barrett as such. I suspect that Barrett was as in awe of Hendrix as much as Gilmour was when he met Hendrix in Paris later that year. Barratt was never a virtuoso player but he was almost as innovative in his wanton abuse and misuse of the instrument and its effects pedals (without quite the theatrics of Hendrix and Townshend). As Henry Cow's Fred Frith observed in a series of articles entitled "Greatest Rock Solos of Our Time" published in NME way back then: " [Apples and Oranges] is my favourite wah-wah playing of all time – incredibly incisive and articulate. He makes the pedal hang always in the edge of feedback, which eventually breaks through as the final sound of the song."
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Tom Ozric ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
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^ Man, what a PITA - I'd cry
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I was, several times, not only with posting it but also in the edits and when Previewing the post to proof-read it.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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@Dean:And I was good with your post. I do think that there is a difference when comparing Hendrix to Syd as Jimi was a virtuoso guitar player and puts him in a different category then Syd, IMO. However, the possibly of Jimi also ending up an "acid casualty", had he lived, was just as great as Syd's. I wonder how they would have compared had Jimi lived.
Edited by SteveG - April 10 2017 at 04:37 |
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Tom Ozric ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
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^ You wouldn't wanna be 'Captcha'd' with that post, eh ?!
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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NB: While my post follows Steve's, it's not written in response to anything he said. I'm good, but not even I can type 830 words (complete with hyperlinks) in 2 minutes.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Of course Syd Barrett is overrated, it would be impossible for him not to be. Just as it is impossible for any cult figure not to be overrated: Jim Morrison, Nick Drake, Tim Buckley and Janis Joplin are all overrated by some and underappreciated by others. (Anyone who thought the antonym was 'underrated' go to the back of the class). Overrated is a misused and overused term that says very little about the artist being discussed and more about the people using it (not enough to leap to a conclusion thou') - if I said coffee is overrated that says more about me and my tastes than it does about coffee itself, however it doesn't mean you can deduce that I don't like coffee as a consequence; coffee-lovers will round on me and defend their love of coffee but that doesn't change my view that a grande skinny double-shot frappacappachino is just coffee. Syd Barrett was just a man with a guitar and some songs.
With some cult artists whose careers were cut short it is difficult to quantify their effect while with others it's piss-easy, anyone who dares to say Jimi Hendrix is overrated would be laughed out of the playground for example. It is easier still of course if that career was cut tragically short so elevation to cultdom was guaranteed by posthumous decree and universal public mourning. With Barrett it's not so easy because he didn't die so wasn't taken away leaving a hole of unrealised potential, but just withdrew from the public glare and with that sort of faded away. Yet with the benefit of hindsight and some understanding of context we can begin to see behind the myth and fable that has grown up around him. Speculation of his mental state, and the causes thereof, didn't really enter into the public consciousness until after the release of Wish You Were here, five years after his last solo album and some three years after Barrett had withdrawn from the music business. Between 1970 and 1973 Pink Floyd and Syd's Floyd were regarded by the media and fans alike as two separate entities, even their record company recognised this and tried to capitalise on the success of Meddle and Dark Side of the Moon with a budget-priced compilation and a retrospective repackaging of the two psychedelic-era Floyd albums as a toofa. As early as 1971 it was acceptable in Pink Floyd fandom to dismiss Piper and Saucerful, and all the 7" singles associated with them, as being relics of a different age, and with that to some extent, Syd Barrett. It seems strange today, but back then knowledge of a five-man Floyd was more of a rumour or myth than universal truth such that when David Bowie (following the release of Pin Ups) claimed to have seen a five-man Floyd perform on stage around 1967/8 it was met with doubt.
The seeds of Barrett's cult-status germinated around 1972 with the formation of the Syd Barrett Appreciation Society and its club fanzine 'Terrapin', but were sown a year or two earlier following rumours of aborted sessions for a third solo album; the hole of unrealised potential that appears as a gaping chasm moments after the untimely death of a musical hero was beginning to form around Barrett while he was still alive, much like it had around Brian Wilson for similar reasons. The promise that Barrett revealed on Piper At The Gates was yet to be seen in his solo work (which in itself was fast becoming eclipsed by Pink Floyd's rise to stardom following the #1 chart success of Atom Heart Mother released a month prior to his second album), people were expecting more and that pressure to deliver shows in later analysis, not only in the documented accounts of the recording sessions that have subsequently surfaced, but also in Barrett's reaction to the reception the albums and his sporadic live shows received. If everything stands or falls on just the body of work he released then the record is not a great one if you measure it at face-value fifty years later. It would seem incongruous that such a fractured and some would say naive collection of songs would have spored such a far-reaching reaction in so many people that you would be forgiven in mistaking this for misplaced adulation of the myth rather than recognition and appreciation of his work. This suggests there is far more to his work than just surface detail just as there is far more to the man than the myth that surrounds him, his innovation and creativity are reflected below any superficial evaluation of mere notes and words, and analysis of guitar and studio technique (though all are a worthy place to start). The sections covering his creative impact and cultural influence given on Wikipedia, while far from being am exhaustive summary, suggests there is far more to this than just a bit of journalistic hype, nostalgia and faddish hipsterism. Edited by Dean - April 10 2017 at 04:25 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Syd developed a strange cult following, if not downright worship, after leaving Floyd and making two solo albums and was treated as if he was a musical genius on par with pre acid damaged Brian Wilson or Lennon/McCartney. Particularly in the UK, but in other the parts of world as well. Why this happened has always been a mystery to me. A cult of personality, perhaps.
Edited by SteveG - April 10 2017 at 04:14 |
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15347 |
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He was instrumental in being the catalyst that ushered in the explosive boost in musical experimentation that the music world desperately needed in the mid 60s. While his gift to the world wasn't in longevity, he certainly was the main impetus for much of the experimental music that would come and even Pink Floyd members themselves clung on to his influneces long after he parted ways. So NOT overated. Who's rating him anyway?
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Dellinger ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12816 |
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I would say that it was Gilmour, Waters, AND Richard Wright. His importance to the sound of Pink Floyd should not be dismissed. If there's any doubt about it, just listen to The Wall and The Final Cut (his influence on The Wall was at it's minimal, I guess, and on The Final Cut... well, obviously he was not there). |
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socrates17 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 12 2014 Location: NJ, USA Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Is the Sun overrated? Is oxygen? And he's had more influence than you may think. Via Soft Boys and Robyn Hitchcock, who wear their appreciation on their sleeves, he's influenced the short-lived new psychedelia movement. His Dadaist whimsy (shared by Robert Wyatt) influenced, among others, Pere Ubu. A strong argument could be made that his space raveups like Intersellar Overdrive and Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun influenced the PF that immediately came after, and had a longer term influence in Hawkwind and many of the German bands such as Amon Duul II. It's a stretch, because it came out only a few months earlier, but doesn't it bear considering that Astronomy Domine influenced to some degree the Stones album Their Satanic Majesties Request?
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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I refuse to say that an artist is overrated, he has the rating he deserves. But I can say that IMHO the best thing that could ever happen to Pink Floyd is the retirement of Syd Barrett, without Gilmour and Waters together, Pink Floyd would had been just a Psychedelic band that vanished in 1970 or 71 trapped in a dying genre.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 09 2017 at 10:05 |
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