Round 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan

Aside from my username what does Rush have to do with this discussion?  The comparison is ELP's w**kery and pretentiousness with Dream Theater's w**kery and pretentiousness. 

[QUOTE=rushfan4] Heck. They don't even have a band name.  They are named after three individuals.  That doesn't sound like a real band to me.  It sounds like a law firm 

And "Rush" sounds like an untimely bout of diarrhea.

Edited by Rednight - December 11 2014 at 10:34

My point was a response to the description of ELP as a 'mere collection...who fail to be a real band' a statement which I fundamentally disagree with. 

Perhaps I am being unfair on DT on the evidence of one (half) concert...  As for Caravan, love 'em.  I had to wait until 1990 to see them mind but at least the great Jimmy Hastings was with them.

And I'd argue that you can't produce the likes of 'Metropolis' or 'Octavarium' without it being a team effort.  I'm not sure you point.  Don't get me wrong, I like ELP in whatever their format.  Oddly enough, I've never really gotten into 'Tarkus' all that much though.  It is good but at least to me it is not nearly the best thing that they ever did, which would be 'Karn Evil 9'. 

micky wrote: One they suck   Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists.

The funny thing about this quote Micky is that it also applies to one of the classic big 7 bands quite well....and that band is ELP, a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists who fail to be a real band.  Isn't that the reason that albums like Works Volume 1 and Volume 2 exist? I would almost think that just for this reason alone, you of all people would actually be a fan of Dream Theater.

Edited by rushfan4 - December 11 2014 at 05:46

oh yeah. A lot of PA history is wrapped up in this.. along with simply DETESTING the group Picking on the fanclub was like a sport around here. We actually had a competition for how many fanboys heads we each had mounted over the fireplace.  It wasn't really challenging, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.  So we decided the fun wasn't to be the kill itself, but thinking up creative ways to make the kills.  We did have a lot of fun picking on them, and being the full of piss fanboys they were, they didn't see the humor. A big mistake which some of the characters here, which only ratcheted up the level of  viritol we threw at them.

It was all in fun, but when you bleed and live for your favorite group I suppose it is hard to see it that way.



Live?  We've walked out of both times we've seen them. Just couldn't take it, but we did try.

Anyhow, variety is the spice of a forum.

Yes EVERY group has its haters.  Some here even fail to see the brilliance of ELP.

rogerthat wrote: micky wrote: rogerthat wrote: Ah, good to see this thread came alive. As for the missing fanboys, well, back when they were still there, Truth made a DT v/s Magma poll and called us trolls when Magma won the poll. One thing that hasn't changed is the difficulty they have in digesting the fact that some people don't worship the ground that DT treads, even when the other band is a very fine one like Caravan. I like early DT and patches of the rest of their albums (post Awake) but hey, is any reason other than Another Day required to dislike them? indeed. Nice to see a bit of fire. Well done Scott! Raff told me about this thread conflagration. This is worth dragging myself out of bed for Old days .. new days.  One thing hasn't changed about PA's.. or prog fan.  Prog Metal is has and likely always will be extremely divisive. DT is the obvious target of that for many people. For several reasons. One they suck   Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists. Two. They are without doubt the most important and influential.  So obviously they have a big ol' KICK ME SIGN right on their backs for those who don't like prog metal. Three.  O yes. The fans themselves. Yes their fans were a bit much and I do think some of the over the top 'hate' was blowback to them.  DT albums being compared to classics from Yes or even Genesis. Come on. Anyhow. As I noted in my Symphony X review. One really could do a good essay on the relationship of prog fan with prog metal. Prog fan will take most anything showing the slightest leanings of progressiveness and claim it as their own, but for some reason for many Prog Metal has the cooties.  There is a real answer in there that begs to be exposed. Well, prog, whether of the symphonic or avant variety, is nothing if not subtle and full of dynamics.  Metal done well is about as subtle as a sledgehammer.   Not surprising that the blend of both is awkward a lot of times. PoS did it well but by pushing their metal side to the background.  Nice review of Divine Wings...by the way.  I like that album too.  As you said, some crushing headbanging mania mixed with Dio-esque majestic vocals.

Thanks Roger. I hadn't reviewed an album in many many years and never was a particularly confident reviewer even then. When I read others reviews and how well they do those my own insecurity gets magnified, especially since my own wife's abilities to dissect albums is so much better than my own. Thanks though. I did enjoy writing it, and yes..  it is a great example of a well done prog metal album that appeals to metal fans and prog fans.. like me.

Yes.. metal often lacks subtlety. So does prog. Some of the best prog albums I have heard are akin to being hit over the head by a 2X4 for 40 minutes.. or overdosing on vallium.  Prog to me never has been about the so called intellectual quotient. It is nice when well done, but in most cases it is not. These are musicians, not scholars, not intellectuals. What prog can do when it is done best, better than any musical form, is appeal to the emotions and  the senses.  Metal as well can do that as well and I would say the best of metal is full of nuance and full of dynamics.  That is one thing that appealed to me in  the Symp X album, and more to the point that is one thing I have always love about Opeth.  In particuar Akerfeldt's vocals and the way his uses his vocal styles and the way he shifts from cookie monster to his very engaging 'normal' singing voice. 

Anyhow.  Metal can be a sledgehammer and I love it for that but do believe there is a lot of room in metal, and progressive metal for subtlety and nuance. DT never seemed to grasp that and seemed to me to be about showcasing the skills rather  than making music that touches the listener. Thus the huge turn off from me.

rushfan4 wrote: I realize this, but again look at the two bands reviews here on PA.  Caravan has one album with over 1,000 reviews.  DT has many.  DT has 5 albums with a 4.0 aggregate rating or better.  Caravan has 1.  Caravan has 5 albums with a ranking in the 2.0s; DT has none.  These are all PA stats and have nothing to do with the general public.  People complain about DT's last few albums, but almost all of Caravan's latest albums are ranked in the 2s.  This is all that I am saying.  On PA paper, DT should be wiping the floor with Caravan, not the other way around.  As was previously agreed to earlier in this thread, it pretty much has to do with the DT fanboy brigade, and me apparently being the last holdover from those days.

rushfan4 wrote: I've yet to see anything but compilation albums for Caravan in any of the record stores that I've shopped at, and I've shopped in a number of them over the years.  Next time I go to my regular place I'm gonna check and see if they might have anything on vinyl, but they definitely have no CDs.

If we consider sales of albums in mainstream shops, we might as well scrap three quarters of the bands and artists included in the PA database. I don't believe you can find Discipline or Shadow Circus albums at your local FYE. A lot of people who dig DT are not fans of other prog genres, and this is one of the reasons why they have sold so many albums (regardless or whether they are good or not).