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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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 Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:47 |
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Liberals are stupid.
Conservatives are stupid.
People deserve free healthcare because they do.
We shouldn't have to foot the bill for someone else.
You're all communists.
I think I'll have another beer and ignore this thread from here on out...I will be the first to admit that this is a bigger issue than I'm smart enough to deal with, but I'm pretty sure I know logical fallacies when I see them, and this thread is full of them.
Time for a beer.
That I bought.
With my hard-earned dollar.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66259
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:42 |
I think that the greatest fear with Universal Healthcare is that the government historically seems to screw up everything that they touch in some way, shape or form. Whether it is billions of dollars paid for a war. Seriously underpaid teachers, police officers, firemen, etc... but on the other hand a messed up education system and a questionable criminal system (depending on various points of view). Social security and Medicare are both kind of teetering on the brink of failure. And everybody has heard the stories of the government paying $1000 for each nut, screw and bolt that they purchased for various building projects or paying millions for research to determine which is the proper way to place toilet paper on a roll. Is it more efficient to take it from the top or the bottom?
I agree 100% that the system needs to be improved, but the big question is do we really think that we can trust our government to do it right and actually improve it?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:35 |
T, that number is not entirely fair because we rock the sh*t out of cancer and other diseases that require specialized care, and from what I understand, part of the reason our life expectancy is lower is that we have higher infant mortality than most other industrialized nations. Which is a bad thing, and I'm not entirely sure why that is, but it makes the statistics misleading.
But I do agree that something should be changed. It seems like they're not going about it the right way, though, since Obama's approval ratings have dropped significantly and Congress' remains dismal.
 Raff wrote:
I'd rather not get into the whole defense thing, but I live close to the Pentagon, and I can't even imagine what kind of expenditure goes into keeping that huge machine in working order. What I find really odd is that the same people who are so dead set against the gov't handling healthcare do not bat an eyelid when it comes to issues such as defense or immigration control. And I'd better stop now, because I have very unconventional views on both issues, and don't want to ruffle feathers more than I have already done.
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But immigration and defense are two of the major reasons that government has existed throughout the centuries, while government health care is a recent invention.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:30 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
T, your liberal bias is showing again. ;-) While the debate has been rather silly at times, perhaps because Obama took a "lesson" from Hillary and dumped the whole thing on Congress, it is disinguous to say there are no reasonable objections to government health care. The government has had a history of screwing this up (like the war you keep complaining about!), and I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned that this will directly hurt you in a significant manner. Now I object to the fact that the debate is apparently change vs no change and that there is a whole PAC dedicated to calling Obama a Nazi (LaRouche), but don't demonize the other side because they're wary about incurring even more debt.
Padraic wrote:
Like most other issues, it doesn't seem like a discussion on the actual details is possible here.  |
I'm not sure it's possible anywhere. |
Maybe so Henry, maybe so. I'm liberal, very liberal, and I recognize that. But the ignorance that most of the people opposing universal healthcare display is appalling. Really....
I just hope they enact some true reform.... If it's not perfect, it will be a start. Please.... the US is number 37 in healthcare in the world... 37...... We're not among the top-10 in life expectancy either.... Is it so hard to see there's something wrong here?
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:27 |
Negoba wrote:
No one seemed to complain about the potential cost when we marched off to war, losing 1000s of our nice healthy Republicans boys alongside the poor ones with nowhere else to go for concepts they understood nothing about. No one complained about the economy when regulations were continually removed on private industry, yet the worst crash in decades derived directly from this lack of regulation. Yet when we talk about health care for poor citizens, people keep acting like we can't afford it. It's all smokescreens.
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It's easy to understand why.
1. Most of the americans that are shouting things like "goverment stay away of my medicare" are stupid enough to believe all the sh*t that their favorite right-wing fear-spreading press throws at them. So when they tell them terrorists=bad, army=saints and things like that, in those simple terms, they do the mental association and conclude that a war is worthy of expenditures, but never health care...
2. Those who are better educated yet still abhorr the idea of universal health care abhorr even more the idea of giving one of their "hard earned" dollars for something they can't hold, let alone enjoy.
3. Some of the better educated actually believe private healthcare is perfect. Don't ask me why, but some do.
4. With war, people see it as "an honorable cause" mostly because they or their children are not in it. As long as no direct relative is fighting abroad, they are not really suffering any ill effects of the war. On the other hand, paying 5 extra dollars a month so that Johny the Poor Guy can receive treatment is a severe blow to their self-respect, since 'they takin' my money outta my pocket'...
It's all individualism. It's all psychological and sociological, cultural. It's the way most americans are. It may change gradually, but it will happen over a span of many decades or even more.... Really, stop believing that it's economical or that the problem is political....
Change will occur in the future, when more people go to school and college, minorities access more power (and stop being minorities) and ignorance recedes back to where it belongs: the outskirts of a true civilized country
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:24 |
T, your liberal bias is showing again. ;-) While the debate has been rather silly at times, perhaps because Obama took a "lesson" from Hillary and dumped the whole thing on Congress, it is disinguous to say there are no reasonable objections to government health care. The government has had a history of screwing this up (like the war you keep complaining about!), and I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned that this will directly hurt you in a significant manner. Now I object to the fact that the debate is apparently change vs no change and that there is a whole PAC dedicated to calling Obama a Nazi (LaRouche), but don't demonize the other side because they're wary about incurring even more debt.
Padraic wrote:
Like most other issues, it doesn't seem like a discussion on the actual details is possible here. |
I'm not sure it's possible anywhere.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:13 |
Negoba wrote:
Time to go meditate and prance around naked with a bunch of nymphs burning flags and dropping acid with Muslim terrorists.
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Typical Saturday evening for me. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:11 |
Time to go meditate and prance around naked with a bunch of nymphs burning flags and dropping acid with Muslim terrorists. You all have a nice night.
I actually am going to meditate. Politics gives me a headache.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:09 |
Negoba wrote:
No one seemed to complain about the potential cost when we marched off to war, losing 1000s of our nice healthy Republicans boys alongside the poor ones with nowhere else to go for concepts they understood nothing about. No one complained about the economy when regulations were continually removed on private industry, yet the worst crash in decades derived directly from this lack of regulation. Yet when we talk about health care for poor citizens, people keep acting like we can't afford it. It's all smokescreens.
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 I'd rather not get into the whole defense thing, but I live close to the Pentagon, and I can't even imagine what kind of expenditure goes into keeping that huge machine in working order. What I find really odd is that the same people who are so dead set against the gov't handling healthcare do not bat an eyelid when it comes to issues such as defense or immigration control. And I'd better stop now, because I have very unconventional views on both issues, and don't want to ruffle feathers more than I have already done.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66259
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:06 |
Are you saying that the funds that would have been spent in Alaska to build the bridge to nowhere would have been better spent on saving peoples lives?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:00 |
No one seemed to complain about the potential cost when we marched off to war, losing 1000s of our nice healthy Republicans boys alongside the poor ones with nowhere else to go for concepts they understood nothing about. No one complained about the economy when regulations were continually removed on private industry, yet the worst crash in decades derived directly from this lack of regulation. Yet when we talk about health care for poor citizens, people keep acting like we can't afford it. It's all smokescreens.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66259
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:58 |
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For what it's worth, I think that the reference to the non-U.S. citizens is more towards the illegal immigrants. It is my understanding that medical care provided to people who are here illegally, largely goes unpaid, and is thus a huge financial strain on the medical system, which of course gets passed on to those who can afford to pay, or have insurance. From a moral standpoint, yes, everyone deserves medical attention no matter their status, but from an economical standpoint, it is unfortunately an issue.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:50 |
The Doctor wrote:
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
So those who are not US citizens are not deserving of health care?  Glad they don't feel that way about non-EU citizens in Europe. |
I am a legal immigrant who came here following every single letter of the law. Will not be able to become a citizen before 2012, but in the meantime live here, and even pay taxes (I own the condo unit where I live). Thankfully I am covered by insurance through my husband, though I have no trust in it whatsoever (sorry, being honest here). I am a decent human being, made of flesh and blood just like the rest of you - only, I was not born here, so I suppose that makes me somewhat inferior  ... I just wish people counted to 1,000,000 before they said something that could hurt someone close to them.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66259
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:42 |
Unfortunately, employer-provided health care is becoming more and more expensive and the worse that the system gets and the more expensive it gets (and don't fool yourself, under the current system it is going to become a lot more expensive in the next 5 to 10 years) the harder it is going to be for employers to provide coverage for employees and remain competitive against foreign competitors from countries with universal health care. This was a serious factor in the demise of the auto industry with U.S. companies trying to compete with Japan or the non-unionized foreign companies with plants in the Southern U.S. I am sure that it probably effects other industries as well.
As I recall, one of Obama's points with this "radical" health care reform is try to be pro-active and "fix" the system now, rather than waiting 5 or 10 or 20 years, when it will even more complex to fix. (reference the social security problem that has been talked about but ignored for years). Just imagine how bad of shape it would be in if Bush had succeeded in privatizing social security prior to the market crashing.
Edited by rushfan4 - September 03 2009 at 15:43
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:41 |
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
So those who are not US citizens are not deserving of health care? Glad they don't feel that way about non-EU citizens in Europe.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:40 |
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
Nice but that does nothing for those of us who are insured and face ever escalating premiums and crushing deductibles. And did you realize we are at war with Eastasia and have always been at war with Eurasia?
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 03 2009 at 15:43
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:39 |
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
Source?
This does not reflect my direct daily experience with this problem. The statistic also does not included those who have insurance plans that pay for virtually nothing (the underinsured). And you don't get to just subtract the working without insurance. A family gross income of $50,000 may or may not be able to afford a meaningful family insurance plan without the protection of a group plan through employer.
The price of paying for insurance as an individual (or individual family) is central to the debate.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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SentimentalMercenary
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 12 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 66
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:29 |
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers."
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Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell.
- Karl Popper
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:28 |
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This will only be brought about gradually - it would be too big a shock to just wake up the next morning to single-payer and the eradication of all private insurance companies. One thing I recently had been thinking about was why not try these things on the state level first, as is already happening with Commonwealth Care? It provides an opportunity for lessons learned and gives you a lot of different approaches - analysis can be done on what works and what doesn't, actual costs and methods of cost containment, etc.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:13 |
Let's see what happens....the plans on the table have never went as far as I would have them go. I've seen reports that say the compromise is to give an ultimatum to private insurers and Republicans, let private industry manage while insuring all, and if they succeed fine. If they fail, the public option enters.
We may find out what is real next Wednesday. Or maybe not.
At best this bill was only ever going to get the foot in the door. But I really really hope it does.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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