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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 04:38
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Whatever, I'd like you to be aware of that payback time has come. Stern Smile

As nobody fogs with me!

DtR

Well that is going to be an issue for me. I'm not very good at making my own weather systems. You'll have to make your own fog I'm afraid. I think I accidentally made a cold front with a gastric zephyr. It was embarrassing and I ended up hiding in the office supplies aisle at Walmart.

Oh, and no worries about payback. My musings are entirely free. I might be in the laundry ring and look like my trash motors are made out of cosmology, but I usually have something to say about "fountain what the if the a in but of nose high the hey pants be the." Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 04:28
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Whatever, I'd like you to be aware of that payback time has come. Stern Smile

As nobody fogs with me!

DtR

Well that is going to be an issue for me. I'm not very good at making my own weather systems. You'll have to make your own fog I'm afraid. I think I accidentally made a cold front with a gastric zephyr. It was embarrassing and I ended up hiding in the office supplies aisle at Walmart.

Oh, and no worries about payback. My musings are entirely free. I might be in the laundry ring and look like my trash motors are made out of cosmology, but I usually have something to say about "fountain what the if the a in but of nose high the hey pants be the." Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 03:48
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But I'm curious about what "method acting" is, ...

I know it by now, and I guess, thanks even more, ....and actually, it's pretty funny. LOL




Edited by David_D - May 19 2022 at 04:10
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 02:05
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This is David all over, it's quite bizarre. I treat it as method acting and see how long he can stay in character. It certainly has a certain entertainment value.

Even I don't quite understand your reply here, Ian, I certainly like it, find it amusing, constructive, and making me optimistic about all this. Thanks  Thumbs Up

But I'm curious about what "method acting" is, and I can say in general that I think much about being entertaining. Big smile 


Edited by David_D - May 19 2022 at 02:22
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 01:31

Well, suitkees, by now, I'm not in doubt anymore about your intention with this

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Today, I'm much more concerned with that the understandig of what Prog is can be so including that Progressive Rock becomes difficult to distinguish from mainstream Rock - and that would be a pity for us, Prog lovers. Confused"


Out of curiosity, and just because I don't understand it, but can you explain how a genre label influences your music appreciation?

but you got a good respond, and I enjoyed it (DtR). Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 15:41
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This is David all over, it's quite bizarre. I treat it as method acting and see how long he can stay in character. It certainly has a certain entertainment value.

Even I don't quite understand your reply here, Ian, I certainly like it, find it amusing, constructive, and making me optimistic about all this. Thanks  Thumbs Up

And right now, I'm listening to To Be Kind, and enjoy it quite a lot. Tongue 


Edited by David_D - May 18 2022 at 15:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 15:40
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, I would suggest that ... generally speaking ... the songwriting came first and foremost, while the proggy-ness came second. A good evidence of that is the fact that many prog acts could be heard on mainstream radio, and the reason was because it was pleasing and motivating to listen to. You could even see & hear King Crimson on MTV. Everyone talks about the "heyday" of prog. Why is that? Why didn't it, generally speaking, remain strongly competitive with other forms of popular music into the 90s and beyond? If that's not a case for retro prog, then I don't know what else to say. Sometimes, I wonder that in some cases we might be sacrificing musicality for sheer acoustical experimentation all in the name of progressiveness. That makes me crave the songwriting of retro prog. In the end, I think that there should be enough room for both under the umbrella of prog. Enough said. I'm crawling back into my retro prog cave ... and yes, it has great acoustics!

Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you say here especially this: "In the end, I think that there should be enough room for both under the umbrella of prog". My own preferences are going more often to really innovative music (which I find a lot outside of prog), but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy some of nowadays prog too (why else would I be here on PA?).


... and I should mention that I do crawl out of my cave from time to time to listen to acoustical experimentation with microtonal music, 12 tone progressive metal, and extremely complicated time signatures. Much of that music is more recent. What I'm trying to say is this. There are some here among us who emphasize the PROG part but seemingly forget about the rock part. Rock music, after all, is by definition a form of POPULAR music. There are in fact many artists who emphasize the mainstream rock music aspect and, secondarily, blend in prog elements. I would be the last person to suggest that PROG rock artists be kicked out of PA because they are not popular enough. That would be absurd. It would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. But, it would be nice if the same consideration were given to prog ROCK artists, who do not place as much emphasis on the avant garde. Yet, I see that it is quite common here on PA to somehow view the prog ROCK folks as "lesser than", which I think is a bit absurd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 15:40
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This is David all over, it's quite bizarre. I treat it as method acting and see how long he can stay in character. It certainly has a certain entertainment value.

Even I don't quite understand your reply here, Ian, I certainly like it, find it amusing, constructive, and making me optimistic about all this. Thanks  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 14:30
This is David all over, it's quite bizarre. I treat it as method acting and see how long he can stay in character. It certainly has a certain entertainment value.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 14:06
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Suitkees, as told, I don't want to discuss your issue with you anymore, so don't expect to get more answers from me.

So, if I understand well, you prefer to drag it on as a monologue by you and yourself, but don't want me to react when you quote me or refer to me? Three times after you said you didn't want to discuss it anymore, you have been quoting me. See how ridiculous you are?

This is what he does. It’s not worth worrying about. I know what you meant. It’s obvious the quotes are taken out of context - and even out of context, they quite clearly don’t say what David suggests they do. You’ve reached the point with David where I am now. He will simply claim to neither respond nor reply to your posts, while occasionally doing just that. I find ir vaguely amusing. But then, I am a caveman, so it probably doesn’t take much to amuse me….


Oh, I'm not worrying, it's becoming a sport. First I didn't want to react at all anymore, but he kept quoting me, so... I know he doesn't want to discuss it anymore and he won't read our messages and reply to us anymore... and then, suddenly... we're back in the game again. It is becoming an entertainment, indeed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 13:48
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, I would suggest that ... generally speaking ... the songwriting came first and foremost, while the proggy-ness came second. A good evidence of that is the fact that many prog acts could be heard on mainstream radio, and the reason was because it was pleasing and motivating to listen to. You could even see & hear King Crimson on MTV. Everyone talks about the "heyday" of prog. Why is that? Why didn't it, generally speaking, remain strongly competitive with other forms of popular music into the 90s and beyond? If that's not a case for retro prog, then I don't know what else to say. Sometimes, I wonder that in some cases we might be sacrificing musicality for sheer acoustical experimentation all in the name of progressiveness. That makes me crave the songwriting of retro prog. In the end, I think that there should be enough room for both under the umbrella of prog. Enough said. I'm crawling back into my retro prog cave ... and yes, it has great acoustics!

Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you say here especially this: "In the end, I think that there should be enough room for both under the umbrella of prog". My own preferences are going more often to really innovative music (which I find a lot outside of prog), but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy some of nowadays prog too (why else would I be here on PA?).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 13:41
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Suitkees, as told, I don't want to discuss your issue with you anymore, so don't expect to get more answers from me.

So, if I understand well, you prefer to drag it on as a monologue by you and yourself, but don't want me to react when you quote me or refer to me? Three times after you said you didn't want to discuss it anymore, you have been quoting me. See how ridiculous you are?

This is what he does. It’s not worth worrying about. I know what you meant. It’s obvious the quotes are taken out of context - and even out of context, they quite clearly don’t say what David suggests they do. You’ve reached the point with David where I am now. He will simply claim to neither respond nor reply to your posts, while occasionally doing just that. I find ir vaguely amusing. But then, I am a caveman, so it probably doesn’t take much to amuse me….

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 13:36
In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, I would suggest that ... generally speaking ... the songwriting came first and foremost, while the proggy-ness came second. A good evidence of that is the fact that many prog acts could be heard on mainstream radio, and the reason was because it was pleasing and motivating to listen to. You could even see & hear King Crimson on MTV. Everyone talks about the "heyday" of prog. Why is that? Why didn't it, generally speaking, remain strongly competitive with other forms of popular music into the 90s and beyond? If that's not a case for retro prog, then I don't know what else to say. Sometimes, I wonder that in some cases we might be sacrificing musicality for sheer acoustical experimentation all in the name of progressiveness. That makes me crave the songwriting of retro prog. In the end, I think that there should be enough room for both under the umbrella of prog. Enough said. I'm crawling back into my retro prog cave ... and yes, it has great acoustics!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 13:35
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Suitkees, as told, I don't want to discuss your issue with you anymore, so don't expect to get more answers from me.

So, if I understand well, you prefer to drag it on as a monologue by you and yourself, but don't want me to react when you quote me or refer to me? Three times after you said you didn't want to discuss it anymore, you have been quoting me. See how ridiculous you are?


Edited by suitkees - May 18 2022 at 13:38

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 13:25

Suitkees, as told, I don't want to discuss your issue with you anymore, so don't expect to get more answers from me.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 12:48
Actually, I think David has a rather good sense of humour. I particularly liked his jibe about the caveman finally entering the Iron Age. I actually (no word of a lie) soar my coffee out because I couldn’t help laughing. I mean, it was an insult directed at me, so perhaps I shouldn’t have found it so humorous, but I did think it was a good one!

[EDIT] But, that said, David can become quite rude and condescending when he goes on the defensive, and thinks he is right about something. What is crazy, is that he is so convinced he knows what someone else is saying/thinking, yet so obviously misinterpreting and/or misconstruing it. So he is arguing about what he thinks is right, even when the person who has said it is telling him that he is wrong.





Edited by nick_h_nz - May 18 2022 at 12:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 12:42
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

.. I mean that the "progressiveness" of the music is not a defining characteristic anymore, at least not necessarily when some of us talk about "prog". Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

Suitkees' approach to music shows me by the way, together with similar approach I've seen of other persons, that this quoted here kind of ahistorical understanding/definition of "progressive rock" can tend to have some other negative aspects than those I've thought of so far. That is, it can be negative towards the kind of artistic approach which often has been called "retro prog".


Hmm, it seems you cannot let it go... I'd advise you to take some weeks off from PA; you're getting more and more pitiful and pathetic. Your persistence to amalgamate definitions with appreciation leads you to conclusions that cannot be drawn: your reasoning is inconsistent and illogical.

My quote here above, contrary to what you claim, is a diachronic approach of the prog definition, which as such makes it possible to call something "retro" and claim that what was once "progressive" is decades later not necessarily "progressive" since it is not progressing in relation to what has been done before. This has nothing to do with my appreciation of "retro" prog (which I'm probably less charmed by than Jaketas, but each one has his/her own appreciations and preferences), but just a take on that some of what is nowadays called "prog rock" is not necessarily about progressiveness anymore, but is just following established patterns. Nothing more, nothing less. You may not agree, but you don't have to become pitiful jerk insulting - and even implicitly menacing - some forum members for their supposed lack of understanding, where you have been exposing since a very long while the inconsistencies in your reasoning and your incapacity to understand other kinds of reasoning, especially logical reasoning.

If you cannot understand that, then I recommend you to follow some comprehensive reading classes and some courses on logic, while you're enjoying your break from PA. You might come back rejuvenated, and maybe - although I'm not optimistic about that - maybe with some sense of humour.

Oh, and when some of what I wrote here is insulting, then you really deserved it...




Edited by suitkees - May 18 2022 at 13:05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 10:59
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I prefer the retro Prog sound. As long as the writing brings forth fruitful new compositions, then it suits me just fine as a bonafide subgenre of Prog. What’s obviously new is the songwriting. The songs are completely original, so I take exception to the “merely replicating” part. In fact, there are plenty of copycats in terms of songwriting amongst the new-fangled sounds. Some of those are well documented here in PA. I cringe when I hear them. Live and let live!

However one wants to describe it, I find for instance Anglargård's Hybris to be a great album.


Edited by David_D - May 19 2022 at 03:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 09:58
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

.. I mean that the "progressiveness" of the music is not a defining characteristic anymore, at least not necessarily when some of us talk about "prog". Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

Suitkees' approach to music shows me by the way, together with similar approach I've seen of other persons, that this quoted here kind of ahistorical understanding/definition of "progressive rock" can tend to have some other negative aspects than those I've thought of so far. That is, it can be negative towards the kind of artistic approach which often has been called "retro prog".



I prefer the retro Prog sound. As long as the writing brings forth fruitful new compositions, then it suits me just fine as a bonafide subgenre of Prog. What’s obviously new is the songwriting. The songs are completely original, so I take exception to the “merely replicating” part. In fact, there are plenty of copycats in terms of songwriting amongst the new-fangled sounds. Some of those are well documented here in PA. I cringe when I hear them. Live and let live!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2022 at 07:58
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

.. I mean that the "progressiveness" of the music is not a defining characteristic anymore, at least not necessarily when some of us talk about "prog". Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

Suitkees' approach to music shows me by the way, together with similar approach I've seen of other persons, that this quoted here kind of ahistorical understanding/definition of "progressive rock" can tend to have some other negative aspects than those I've thought of so far. That is, it can be negative towards the kind of artistic approach which often has been called "retro prog".


Edited by David_D - May 18 2022 at 08:03
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