Downloading

Pnoom! wrote: For the record, I plan on being a musician, and I also plan on letting people download my work free.

Well, I'm just a part time hobby musician, but I also made the demo song that I recorded available for free (at last.fm, search for MikeEnRegalia).

But I think that it's important that we let each artist make the decision how to make their recordings available, and respect it. I'm not saying that you don't ... I'm just saying.

Pnoom! wrote: He won't receive that money He wouldn't receive it if you didn't buy it in the first place.   I want a ferrari, the store won't receive money if I don't buy it, so...Can I take it? Ergo...You are stealing that money from him and using his property in our benefit....The two caracteristics of a crime are there: Animus delicti (You know you are taking something it's not yours) and animus lucrandi (You are geting a benefiit from the act). You aren't stealing that money from him because he doesn't have it in the first place.   But you are using something YOU KNOW IT'S NOT YOUR'S in your benefit, if you want to listen that music, you have to pay the artist, so yes, you are depriving him of his proprty. BTW: Stealing copyrighted material is worst than stealing a CD, a CD has monetary value of 2 or 3 bucks, not more, if you want to talk about commercial value, lets say 15 to 20 bucks, if you steal one, it's shoplifting. Copyrighted material is invaluable, that's way you can be forced to pay US$ 125,000 per song..   CDs contain copyrighted material.  Therefore, stealing a CD is like downloading illegally, only someone actually loses money.   Not exactly,. the law hasn't catched technology, if you steal a CD, it has a value in the store, it's 11 or 15 bucks, so it's shoftlifting If you download illegaly, you can be sued and forced to pay $125,000 per song Also, the idea that copyrighted material is invaluable just isn't true.  If it were, artists would never let labels own their work.   Yes it is, it doesn't have a determined cost when you protect them, so it'sn literally invaluable. Iván

Pnoom! wrote: The point I'm making is that there's no guaranteed benefit to the artist for buying new, though I can see where that would be misinterpreted. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy new, and I'm not saying that it's more likely to support the artist, I'm just trying to hammer home that the only way to guarantee that you help the artist is to buy directly from them/the label.

The main problem with focusing on that aspect of the record industry is that it is too often used as justification for piracy.

I think the more interesting points in the illegal downloading debate are that the biggest downloaders also tend to be the biggest buyers and that buying used offers almost as little benefit to the artist as downloading does.

Pnoom! wrote: If you don't buy hard copies directly from the artist/label, it doesn't matter whether it's new or used, the artist gets nothing from your sale.

IMO that's totally beside the point. The important thing is: The artist signed a contract with the record company, agreeing to how the albums will be sold. If that means that the artist doesn't get anything from the album sales ... then so be it. But as long as enough albums are sold, the record company might finance the recording of the next album, so the artist may get *something* from those album sales in the end.

Long story short: If you decide to download for free what the artist (or their label) don't offer for free, you're infringing their rights.

EvilGnome wrote: Pnoom! wrote: smcfee wrote: This is utter nonsense. If you buy a label's CDs from a distributor/vendor, they will order more, and then the artist/label get paid. You are playing a mental shell game with money. It's all part of the same ecosystem. This is not guaranteed.  It might happen, but the money the artist gets still doesn't come from your purchase. Your previous posts seem to contend that the artists get zero compensation for record sales. Sell 1,000 copies of an album, get zero dollars. Sell 1,000,000 copies of an album, get zero dollars. I think most people are aware that artists generally don't get a commission for each copy sold, but to argue that there is no benefit to the artist for buying new is absurd.

The point I'm making is that there's no guaranteed benefit to the artist for buying new, though I can see where that would be misinterpreted.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy new, and I'm not saying that it's more likely to support the artist, I'm just trying to hammer home that the only way to guarantee that you help the artist is to buy directly from them/the label.

smcfee the reference to Pnoom!s post count is completely irrelevant.

If this thread dissolves into personal attacks again warnings will be handed out.

Pnoom! wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: Other points to ponder.  If I buy used, nothing new goes to the artist, but if I buy new and they are signed with a major record company, they don't get much.  If I buy directly from their site they get the max.  Please do that whenever you can. If you don't buy hard copies directly from the artist/label, it doesn't matter whether it's new or used, the artist gets nothing from your sale.

This is utter nonsense. If you buy a label's CDs from a distributor/vendor, they will order more, and then the artist/label get paid. You are playing a mental shell game with money. It's all part of the same ecosystem.

With 4,000 posts to your "credit" I think it's time to start thinking more before each one.

Slartibartfast wrote: Other points to ponder.  If I buy used, nothing new goes to the artist, but if I buy new and they are signed with a major record company, they don't get much.  If I buy directly from their site they get the max.  Please do that whenever you can.

If you don't buy hard copies directly from the artist/label, it doesn't matter whether it's new or used, the artist gets nothing from your sale.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Simple: People has physical and intellectual properties

True.

If you sell your goods, you get money

True.

If you sell an album, you get royalties which is money

True.

If you illegally download, you are STEALING THE ROYALTIES FROM THE AUTHOR

If you don't download the album, the artist gets no royalties.  If you do download the album, the artists gets no royalties.  So no, the artist has not lost any royalties from you downloading the album.

On the other hand, if you steal a CD, in order to sell another copy of that CD, they must procure another CD in order to sell it, which costs money.  Therefore, they have lost something that they did not lose in the first case.

He won't receive that money

He wouldn't receive it if you didn't buy it in the first place.

Ergo...You are stealing that money from him and using his property in our benefit....The two caracteristics of a crime are there: Animus delicti (You know you are taking something it's not yours) and animus lucrandi (You are geting a benefiit from the act).

You aren't stealing that money from him because he doesn't have it in the first place.

BTW: Stealing copyrighted material is worst than stealing a CD, a CD has monetary value of 2 or 3 bucks, not more, if you want to talk about commercial value, lets say 15 to 20 bucks, if you steal one, it's shoplifting. Copyrighted material is invaluable, that's way you can be forced to pay US$ 125,000 per song.. Iván.

CDs contain copyrighted material.  Therefore, stealing a CD is like downloading illegally, only someone actually loses money.

Also, the idea that copyrighted material is invaluable just isn't true.  If it were, artists would never let labels own their work.

Tony R wrote: That's about as accurate as saying that Canada is the 51st State of America!!

So it's completely accurate, then.

Pnoom! wrote: I'm pretty sure stealing requires depriving somebody of something they wouldn't otherwise have, which downloading doesn't do.  And if illegal downloading does qualify as stealing, then all that indicates is that our definition of stealing is too broad and covers more than it ought to, because illegal downloading is a world removed from stealing a hard copy of a CD.