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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:02
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

From where those highly polished balls come to the religious painting created at the time when the people believed that the Earth is flat and when just perfect metal spheres could not been seen so frequently ? 
Go away. No really, if you are going to spout ill-informed nonsense like that you should just simply go away. There is nothing of value you could possibly contribute to any subject of study that exists anywhere, ever. I'm being serious here. If you believe that people in the 17th century thought the world was flat then there is nothing that you could possibly say that has any value what-so-ever. It is a myth, worse than that, it is wholly incorrect and 100% inaccurate - educated people have known that the Earth was spherical since 300BCE, it has been a widely held belief throughout the whole of Europe since the 14th century. When that painting was produced the idea of a flat-Earth was viewed as being rather silly.

However, what is depicted in the paintings is not the earth, nor are they highly polished balls - for one thing they are not reflecting their surroundings - 17th century painters knew how to paint reflective surfaces, they have know how to do that since the 15th century when van Eyck painted the famous Arnolfini Wedding painting - the images that look like reflections are actually details on the surface of the sphere and they are the Sun and the Moon. The spherical object is the Celestial Sphere (which it why it contains the Moon and Sun) and shows the two fellows in the pictures have dominion over the whole universe, this is paralleled with the smaller orbis terrarum, (which later became the globus cruciger), that is uses to show the church's dominion over the World. 

Artists commissioned to paint religious paintings were not free to paint whatever they liked. They painted what their patrons (the Bishops and Cardinals) told them to paint.

Ignorance of history is not an excuse.


Edited by Dean - January 04 2014 at 13:24
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 10:29

The Baptism of Christ  by Flamish artist Aert De Gelder, 1710, Fitzwilliam Museum - Cambridge, England.

In this case, a comment is unnecessary.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 08:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

And so to the next one....

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:



Dont worry, Dean. Any similarity with Sputnik satellite was accidental LOL

So, if not Sputnik, what do you, Sventonio, think this painting is depicting?

My analytical and artistic mind (yay! I have both, who would have thought it?) sees the Sun and Moon on that blue globe, I wonder why they are there? Could they be the reflection of an overhead electric light and a telephoto camera lens? And those wands that those two chaps are holding onto, could they be antenna or something? Gosh that would be a revelation wouldn't it - electric light, camera lenses and antenna in a 17th century painting, like wow! I wonder if there are examples of this in other paintings?

Holy crap, would you look at that!





...oh man, give me a break. LOL




From where those highly polished balls come to the religious painting created at the time when the people believed that the Earth is flat and when just perfect metal spheres could not been seen so frequently ? 


Edited by Svetonio - January 04 2014 at 08:23
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 07:47











The Maddona with Saint Giovannino, Pallaco Veccio, 15th century, Italy

Isn't very strange that the renaissance artist - who painted that Maddona so beautiful - "doesn't  know" to paint the Sun well, although he painted the figure in a landscape who is watching that "sun"?






Edited by Svetonio - January 04 2014 at 08:06
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 07:17
And so to the next one....

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:



Dont worry, Dean. Any similarity with Sputnik satellite was accidental LOL

So, if not Sputnik, what do you, Sventonio, think this painting is depicting?

My analytical and artistic mind (yay! I have both, who would have thought it?) sees the Sun and Moon on that blue globe, I wonder why they are there? Could they be the reflection of an overhead electric light and a telephoto camera lens? And those wands that those two chaps are holding onto, could they be antenna or something? Gosh that would be a revelation wouldn't it - electric light, camera lenses and antenna in a 17th century painting, like wow! I wonder if there are examples of this in other paintings?

Holy crap, would you look at that!





...oh man, give me a break. LOL
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:52
Those videos are very interesting.






Edited by Svetonio - January 04 2014 at 06:54
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:43
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 

The materials weren't originally published at NASA website.
The maps of the Moon were (and still are) and that is all I have discussed here. I may look at the other videos later if I can be bothered, but having shown that one is a gross misinterpretation I do not see the point in looking at the others.

I repeat: discuss my points and refute them or present ideas of your own. Arguing over whether they were leaked or not is unproductive. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:40
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I assume his point is that seemingly otherworldly events are captured in ancient art.   Though to me, a man in a starship or balls of fire in the sky don't indicate anything paranormal.  

Exactly, that's my point.
I agreed that those starships at the frescoes don't indicate anything paranormal   per se.
Hovewer, they are painted starships from 1335 AD.
That's a problem of perception actually - somebody will always see only a naive painting of Sun & Moon with two angels inside just because a conservative way of thinking don't allow anything what could be different from an official theory.
 
So. I see. You seem to be very certain that they are painted starships from the 12th century. You are very quick to dismiss all other possible explanations, even those that make sense and have associative evidence. 

I did not present evidence of showing the Sun and Moon in medieval paintings of the crucifixion "just because a conservative way of thinking " or because it was the "official theory", quite the contrary in fact, I present them as an alternative (non-conservative, progressive) way of examining the obvious 21st century explanation (they are spaceships). I have no idea what the conservative official theory is any more than you do. I looked at the image you posted and saw something so blindingly obvious to me that I had to investigate it further, in doing so I found other images that supported that interpretation. If you refute my findings then do so. Show me one medieval image that shows the Sun, the Moon AND two occupied flying saucers. Demonstrate to me that my interpretation that the two objects are stylised images of the Sun and Moon cannot possibly be correct. Use that open mind of yours. 


btw: There is nothing naive in the artwork of the fresco artist, naive art is something entirely different.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

^^ The videos and pics leaked from NASA.


(...) These were not "leaked" from NASA, (...)</span>

Well, I know people who think (and could arguing for hours to deny that) that the Wikileaks, Assange and Snowden are a project by CIA actually. Why? because "nothing can't leaks form CIA"

Argh! Completely irrelevant.
Please do not quote me out of context, I said:
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">These were not "leaked" from NASA,</span><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;"> they were openly published by NASA.</span>
Not leaked. Published on the NASA website by NASA. Do you even know the difference?


The materials weren't originally published at NASA website.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:32
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

^^ The videos and pics leaked from NASA.


(...) These were not "leaked" from NASA, (...)</span>

Well, I know people who think (and could arguing for hours to deny that) that the Wikileaks, Assange and Snowden are a project by CIA actually. Why? because "nothing can't leaks form CIA"
Argh! Completely irrelevant.

Please do not quote me out of context, I said:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

These were not "leaked" from NASA, they were openly published by NASA.

Not leaked. Published on the NASA website by NASA. Do you even know the difference?
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

(...) 
A man in a starship in the 12th century is paranormal. Even if it was 100% real it is still paranormal. We must agree use a common vocabulary here or it just becomes a game of clever word play, and that will only add to the confusion, especially for those for whom English is a second language.

Not only the language barriers are the problem.
Or, it is a problem, but a problem that could be solved.
Our ways of thinking are different and that can't be solved.

Edited by Svetonio - January 04 2014 at 06:32
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

^^ The videos and pics leaked from NASA.


(...) These were not "leaked" from NASA, (...)</span>

Well, I know people who think (and could arguing for hours to deny that) that the Wikileaks, Assange and Snowden are a project by CIA actually. Why? because "it's impossible that something leaks from CIA - CIA controlled all"

Edited by Svetonio - January 04 2014 at 06:30
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:11
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

^^ The videos and pics leaked from NASA.

And your point is?

Either present alternative ideas of your own or discuss the points I have made and refute them.

These were not "leaked" from NASA, they were openly published by NASA.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 06:08
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I assume his point is that seemingly otherworldly events are captured in ancient art.   Though to me, a man in a starship or balls of fire in the sky don't indicate anything paranormal.  

I know what he was probably inferring, I wanted it from his own mouth in his own words. I don't presume to assume anything.

 
A man in a starship in the 12th century is paranormal. Even if it was 100% real it is still paranormal. We must agree use a common vocabulary here or it just becomes a game of clever word play, and that will only add to the confusion, especially for those for whom English is a second language.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 05:56
^^ The videos and pics leaked from NASA.

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 05:48
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Oh for pity's sake. 

Why would anyone believe (or even think) this is evidence of a large structure on the surface of the Moon? 

The Repsold R crater just "south" of the alleged structure is 117 km in diameter so simple analysis of the image gives the so-called building length of 1000 km and a width of 120 km. A feature that large would not only be visible on every map and photograph of the Oceanus Procellarum, every professional and amateur astronomer that has ever looked through a telescope at the Moon would have seen it.

The shadows of all the craters shows that they are illuminated from the "east-south-east", yet this apparent structure is illuminated from "north-north-east" - this is physically impossible since we do not have two Suns, and if we did then all the features would cast double shadows.

The longitude and latitude lines on the image are curved in the photograph showing the degree of image distortion present in the photograph. Maps represent these as straight lines as this is how we project a curved surface such as a sphere onto a flat surface such as a map (see wikipedia on map projection) - a straight line projected onto a curved surface will appear to be curved, similarly what appears to look like a straight line on a curved surface is actually a curve. What this means is the presumed structure would only appear to be perfectly straight if viewed from the exact position in space that the photograph was taken from. Seen from any other position in space the supposed building would be curved and tapered. Are people really going to suggest that this has been deliberately constructed so that it appears to be perfectly straight when viewed from one specific point in the orbit of the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter?

Examination of the image shows that the purported structure runs parallel to the scan-lines of the camera on board the LRO. Also the image is not one continuous photograph, it is a mosaic of several smaller photographs pieced together - evidence of this is obvious even in the video as the edges of successive images can easily be seen. It is not a coincidence that the reputed structure is on exactly the same orientation as both the scan lines and the individual photograph edges, from this it is evident that it is an artefact of the imaging process and not a physical structure.




These videos, photographs and paintings are an amusing diversion but frankly, they do not stand up to even the most casual scrutiny. What they reveal is not evidence of aliens, but the degree to which people are prepared to believe.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 05:45
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I assume his point is that seemingly otherworldly events are captured in ancient art.   Though to me, a man in a starship or balls of fire in the sky don't indicate anything paranormal.  

Exactly, that's my point.
I agreed that those starships at the frescoes don't indicate anything paranormal   per se.
However, they are painted starships from 1335 AD.
That's a problem of perception actually - somebody will always see only a naive painting of Sun & Moon with two angels inside just because a conservative way of thinking don't allow anything what could be different from an official theory.


Edited by Svetonio - January 04 2014 at 05:57
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Points: 65435 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 04:47
I assume his point is that seemingly otherworldly events are captured in ancient art.   Though to me, a man in a starship or balls of fire in the sky don't indicate anything paranormal.  

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 04:44
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
..and your point is?

 

Our painter was much better.
Stern Smile joking aside... (...) Jesus is often depicted being flanked by angels (which is also true of your Kosovo fresco, though that is not clear in the poor quality image you posted) (...)

"Poor quality image" I posted? LOL
ok here's a very poor quality video about the frescoes in Visoki Dečani the monastery (painted 1335 AD):

I was referring to the poor quality scan of the whole fresco shown in your posted image that didn't show the detail of the two angels on either side of the cross, this better quality scan shows them in better resolution:
 

Now, are you going to deny that your image is a lower quality scan than this?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 02:56
Once again.

...and your point is?
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