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Negoba 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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 Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:28 |
 Kestrel wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Kestrel wrote:
Huh? What faith do we put in science?
You have faith that this way of thinking will give you the answers to questions regarding the Universe. And it does, but not all of them. It is not designed to do so.
I don't have faith that science gives me answers. It does. Time and time again. And it gives answers that work.
It depends on what kind of questions you're asking about the universe - science takes care of the questions I wonder about, but I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to get at.
And any scientist would gladly tell you that our understanding of the Universe is quite limited - that's why there are still scientists!
Most real scientists will admit this for their particular field. Most of the atheists who put their faith in science are not scientists (interesting converse to a previous argument). Far too few admit to the limits of the scientific method in general.
Maybe. Maybe not. I haven't encountered any atheists that think this way.
I've seen this said so many times and I have yet to actually be shown these "other truths." Can you tell me some?
As long as you remain limited to a scientific / objectivist perspective, you will not be able to perceive these truths. But I'll try anyway. Religions work best in helping an individual, subject self find their place in the Universe. Much meditation regards fine tuning your perception, your ability to discern self from other. It's about direct experience of the here and now, trying to shed the filters of our expectations and teaching. In that way the goal is like science, except for the individual subject rather than the group objective point of view. And these are ancient traditions, some non-theist, which predate "New Age" by millenia.
Yep, that's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me.
And yes, some "New Atheists" do want to get rid of religion. Not sure what is wrong with that.
They do not understand what they're trying to get rid of. They deny the good and exaggerate the evil that is done in the name of religion, most often by persons who themselves had very little understanding of the religions whose banners they flew.
Even if that's the case, people like Dawkins or myself argue that how good or bad a religion is is ultimately irrelevant. What matters is if it's correct or not.
These "why" questions are mostly nonsensical if you want anything beyond evolution.
Of course they are. but I do want something beyond evolution. I work in a field completely dependent on science but where science leaves major gaps and will always. It forces me to think a little bigger.
Can't help you here.
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You're intelligent and consistent, but you're choosing a 2-dimensional outlook on a 3 (or more) dimensional existence. But you've stated you don't want to venture outside those questions, which is fine. It's also a shame since you're clearly intelligent enough to handle more.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:25 |
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Lucky I'm Catholic... we don't cut off nothing of our bodies... Give me sometime... I have to read another two pages of answers to know what I miss...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 04:15 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials. |
Oh, I never said it was. God did, though: Genesis 17:9-10: "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 03:00 |
| Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years. |
| So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood. |
Yeah it's pretty crazy right! Can't disagree with you there. If you didn't have some kind of "What the hell?" reaction to those quotes then you aren't breathing.
Edited by AmbianceMan - December 03 2009 at 03:00
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:57 |
Dean wrote:
AmbianceMan wrote:
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials. |
You do know that he was referring to circumcision and not castration don't you. Good, just checking. |
Ahhh...exaggeration, I should have known!
There is always room for a Monty Python/Life of Brian pop quiz, especially in this thread.
Here's a good article by K. Ham on carbon dating in general.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:57 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one... |
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible From Ken Ham:
| Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years. |
| So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:49 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials. |
You do know that he was referring to circumcision and not castration don't you. Good, just checking.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:45 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one... |
You offer a Monty Python Pop quiz?
Here's my question -- how do "scientists" date rock?
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What?
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:42 |
Negoba wrote:
Kestrel wrote:
Huh? What faith do we put in science?
You have faith that this way of thinking will give you the answers to questions regarding the Universe. And it does, but not all of them. It is not designed to do so.
I don't have faith that science gives me answers. It does. Time and time again. And it gives answers that work.
It depends on what kind of questions you're asking about the universe - science takes care of the questions I wonder about, but I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to get at.
And any scientist would gladly tell you that our understanding of the Universe is quite limited - that's why there are still scientists!
Most real scientists will admit this for their particular field. Most of the atheists who put their faith in science are not scientists (interesting converse to a previous argument). Far too few admit to the limits of the scientific method in general.
Maybe. Maybe not. I haven't encountered any atheists that think this way.
I've seen this said so many times and I have yet to actually be shown these "other truths." Can you tell me some?
As long as you remain limited to a scientific / objectivist perspective, you will not be able to perceive these truths. But I'll try anyway. Religions work best in helping an individual, subject self find their place in the Universe. Much meditation regards fine tuning your perception, your ability to discern self from other. It's about direct experience of the here and now, trying to shed the filters of our expectations and teaching. In that way the goal is like science, except for the individual subject rather than the group objective point of view. And these are ancient traditions, some non-theist, which predate "New Age" by millenia.
Yep, that's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me.
And yes, some "New Atheists" do want to get rid of religion. Not sure what is wrong with that.
They do not understand what they're trying to get rid of. They deny the good and exaggerate the evil that is done in the name of religion, most often by persons who themselves had very little understanding of the religions whose banners they flew.
Even if that's the case, people like Dawkins or myself argue that how good or bad a religion is is ultimately irrelevant. What matters is if it's correct or not.
These "why" questions are mostly nonsensical if you want anything beyond evolution.
Of course they are. but I do want something beyond evolution. I work in a field completely dependent on science but where science leaves major gaps and will always. It forces me to think a little bigger.
Can't help you here.
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:41 |
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one...
Edited by AmbianceMan - December 03 2009 at 02:43
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:40 |
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^ I'm with the meek.... if it's okay with you guys.
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What?
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:34 |
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.''
I Corinthians 6:9-10
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That's well and good, but I think you missed the part where I agreed with you.
I've done some things on that list. I have stolen before. I've had too much too drink (fairly recently I might add). So I'm no better than a homosexual and I'm not judging them.
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials.
Edited by AmbianceMan - December 03 2009 at 02:41
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:31 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ "very many" ... can you name any prominent examples? And he didn't "basically say that people with higher educations figure it out for him" - all he said was that it takes detailed knowledge in a scientific area in order to give detailed examples. And the difference between examples for evolution and examples for creation are that those for evolution are based on evidence. There is no need to trust the person making the claim, since you can go out there and verify the claim. |
Here is a very prominent name: Ken Ham. You will probably dismiss him right away because he doesn't agree with you but he delves into genetics, carbon dating. He has a book called The Answers Book..I think that's the name of it. Very smart man. There are many, many others, even working for NASA and other highly technical fields.
You may come to realize that a lot of that "evidence" has been processed or manipulated to fit a certain mold. |
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:26 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
| Well . . . the Bible states that you yourself are not worthy of saving from a horrible, eternal demise, but if you admit that you are worth nothing and throw your entire life over to a higher being, you will be saved. You must believe that Jesus in the son of God, and that he died for your sins. Now, rather than God doing the loving thing and welcoming us all into heaven, he only accepts those who aknowledge him as supreme and powerful and real. In order to believe this, you must also believe that it is okay to mutilate little boy's genitals, that homosexuals are evil sinners and will not inherit the kingdom of heave, that you should follow God's orders regardless of what they ask of you, etc.
This makes absolutely no sense. Everyone here knows that this is not true, and it's not what the bible says. If you're going to use something like this, then quote where you found it. I have read it multiple times. I also spent most of my life NOT believing the bible, so I see the argument from both sides. You should really learn more about the bible if you are going to say something outlandish and claim that it's in the bible. It is true that homosexuality is said to be a sin, but so are thousands of other things, and believe me I've done a lot of sinning in my life. One sin is not worse than any other as far as God is concerned, either you have sinned (even once) OR you have sinned and been forgiven according to what the bible says. So I can't pass judgement on anyone else's sin. This isn't what I think r want to be true, I'm just telling you what it says.
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Being skeptical is a very good thing by the way, and I can tell that you are. |
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.''I Corinthians 6:9-10
Edited by p0mt3 - December 03 2009 at 02:26
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:24 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
Kestrel wrote:
AmbianceMan wrote:
You do realize that very, very many people with very high educations are creationists also, right? There are former evolutionary scientists out there who claim creationism, so saying that the "more educated" people are evolutionists is hogwash. And you also basically said that people with higher educations figure it out for you, and you accept it. I could use the same argument for creationism. |
That is completely false.
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So 11% of all people with a post graduate degree do not believe in evolution? And how many people would you say that is? I say it would be many. |
I love how you completely missed his point entirely.
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:22 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ "very many" ... can you name any prominent examples? And he didn't "basically say that people with higher educations figure it out for him" - all he said was that it takes detailed knowledge in a scientific area in order to give detailed examples. And the difference between examples for evolution and examples for creation are that those for evolution are based on evidence. There is no need to trust the person making the claim, since you can go out there and verify the claim. |
Here is a very prominent name: Ken Ham. You will probably dismiss him right away because he doesn't agree with you but he delves into genetics, carbon dating. He has a book called The Answers Book..I think that's the name of it. Very smart man. There are many, many others, even working for NASA and other highly technical fields.
You may come to realize that a lot of that "evidence" has been processed or manipulated to fit a certain mold.
Edited by AmbianceMan - December 03 2009 at 02:25
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:18 |
Kestrel wrote:
AmbianceMan wrote:
You do realize that very, very many people with very high educations are creationists also, right? There are former evolutionary scientists out there who claim creationism, so saying that the "more educated" people are evolutionists is hogwash. And you also basically said that people with higher educations figure it out for you, and you accept it. I could use the same argument for creationism. |
That is completely false.
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So 11% of all people with a post graduate degree do not believe in evolution? And how many people would you say that is? I say it would be many.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:11 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
You do realize that very, very many people with very high educations are creationists also, right? There are former evolutionary scientists out there who claim creationism, so saying that the "more educated" people are evolutionists is hogwash. And you also basically said that people with higher educations figure it out for you, and you accept it. I could use the same argument for creationism. |
That is completely false.
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:06 |
You're operating under the assumption that the Bible is true. Let's look at things my way for a bit, shall we?
Let's just say that the Bible isn't true. Now . . . it clearly isn't truly spreading any good news about anything real, and instead is giving false hope. So if not to spread truth, what other purpose would there be for the Bible to be written?
Well . . . the Bible states that you yourself are not worthy of saving from a horrible, eternal demise, but if you admit that you are worth nothing and throw your entire life over to a higher being, you will be saved. You must believe that Jesus in the son of God, and that he died for your sins. Now, rather than God doing the loving thing and welcoming us all into heaven, he only accepts those who aknowledge him as supreme and powerful and real. In order to believe this, you must also believe that it is okay to mutilate little boy's genitals, that homosexuals are evil sinners and will not inherit the kingdom of heave, that you should follow God's orders regardless of what they ask of you, etc.
This makes absolutely no sense. Everyone here knows that this is not true, and it's not what the bible says. If you're going to use something like this, then quote where you found it. I have read it multiple times. I also spent most of my life NOT believing the bible, so I see the argument from both sides. You should really learn more about the bible if you are going to say something outlandish and claim that it's in the bible. It is true that homosexuality is said to be a sin, but so are thousands of other things, and believe me I've done a lot of sinning in my life. One sin is not worse than any other as far as God is concerned, either you have sinned (even once) OR you have sinned and been forgiven according to what the bible says. So I can't pass judgement on anyone else's sin. This isn't what I think r want to be true, I'm just telling you what it says.Now, Imagine that the Church is just another component to this hoax. Wouldn't it be very convenient for people to believe that they are doing God's will by paying the church money, following the church leader's guidance, and so forth? Modern day churches don't typically operate under the concept of tithing and such nowadays, and only accept money as an 'offering'. Still, churches don't have to pay taxes, and are allowed to get away with a lot of dangerous, harmful actions all under the banner of 'freedom of religion'. Ever heard of The Family?
I don't see a problem with this. Churches have to pay for the building, pay the people who spend full time involved with church functions (this is also known as a job), electric, water, etc. etc. Where do you suggest they get this money? Sure you can point out where money has been embezzled or mishandled, but this happens EVERYWHERE else too. Just because someone walks into a church building, it doesn't make them "holy". Churches send doctors, nurses, construction teams throughout the world. It's not cheap.
Now, obviously not all churches these days are like that, as in modern times most of them have had to adapt to what is considered acceptible these days, but basically what I'm saying is that if Christianity is false, wouldn't control be the next obvious reason for the Bible to be written? Control is a good reason for anything to be made up.
Or money, like Al Gores global warming agenda. It used to be global cooling, then a warming trend was recognized so the global cooling peeps changed to global warming. Now they have discovered that the temperature is on the decline again, and that the number of polar bears is increasing. Pretty soon we are going to be talking about global cooling again. Money is a great motivator. How much money has he made on this? Hundreds of millions. Would you give it up if you were making that kind of money?
More recent 'religions' such as Scientology prove that people will follow just about any doctrine if they personally believe it to be true. The only reason Scientology or Mormonism are more widely known to be false is because the people who made them up are well-known and can be read up on. Christianity escaped that scrutiny because whoever made it up did so in a time when not everything was on record.
So Christianity may not equal the church to you, but the agendas may have once been the same.
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Being skeptical is a very good thing by the way, and I can tell that you are.
Edited by AmbianceMan - December 03 2009 at 02:12
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:01 |
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^ "very many" ... can you name any prominent examples? And he didn't "basically say that people with higher educations figure it out for him" - all he said was that it takes detailed knowledge in a scientific area in order to give detailed examples. And the difference between examples for evolution and examples for creation are that those for evolution are based on evidence. There is no need to trust the person making the claim, since you can go out there and verify the claim.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 03 2009 at 02:01
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Evolution vs. Creationism
