Covid-19 and the madness of crowds

^ I suppose its hard to draw the line sometimes. I personally don't need the government's help as I know how to stay safe, but to use a different issue as an example, when I was young there were people who thought it was government tyranny when they had to let black people sit at the same lunch counter as themselves. My point being that some of these arguments being presented here give me a sense of deja vu, and I am familiar with the people who cling to these arguments.

I know the two issues may seem entirely different, but just as staring point, do you think desegregation of lunch counters in the US was government tyranny?

I do confess I struggle to understand these debates. Say, about Christmas. We kept temples shut for months and months here. Muslims made sacrifices to their Ramadan rituals too. It had to be done. Nobody likes doing it and I agree exactly with what ken says - nobody in power NOW actually wants the responsibility of dealing with covid. I bet even Jacinda doesn't, even though she succeeded brilliantly in handling it and won her party a bigger mandate. It's nerve wracking and it's thrown their budgets completely out of gear. There are bigger agendas at play but I don't think they are related to safety measures to curb the spread of the virus. To me, the bigger problem is leaders failing to set an example for what they want the people to do and the likes of Newsom /Breed not adhering to the restrictions they want people to follow is not going to help matters. I think the leaders have to show, first and foremost, that they are willing to make the sacrifices they expect the population to. If they don't, it is but natural that people would resent submitting to such restrictions.

The Doctor wrote: SteveG wrote: That's an excellent point. What does the government get out of it? Very little. This is quite different from the social restrictions or mind control that one finds in Orwell's 1984. That type of micro managing had a purpose. A more obedient population, just like in 1984.  I know I don't, and you probably don't think that way either, but for some power is its own reward.  I'm not saying the government should do nothing.  But it's methods have become far too invasive.  When the government, for any reason, can mandate small businesses out of business and effect massive wealth transfers from small business to multi-national corporations, that's more power than I want my government to have.  And that's just one of the abuses.  People have to work and when it comes to essential jobs, every job is essential for the person relying on that paycheck.

Edited by Man With Hat - December 26 2020 at 16:30

lazland wrote: dr wu23 wrote: The Doctor wrote: ....... As for how they count Covid deaths, I've heard multiple things and I don't know what to believe on that. Whatever is going on with that, I think governments of the west are using it as an opportunity to seize power that they have no business seizing.  Er,...how exactly are these governments of the west 'seizing power thay they have no business seizing'? These are the rules in Wales for Christmas Day. Just one day. https://gov.wales/making-christmas-bubble-friends-and-family  There is an extremely powerful argument, in my opinion, that such micromanagement of citizens lives is utterly inappropriate, and I assume an example of what the Good Doctor was stating.

SteveG wrote: lazland wrote: dr wu23 wrote: The Doctor wrote: ....... As for how they count Covid deaths, I've heard multiple things and I don't know what to believe on that. Whatever is going on with that, I think governments of the west are using it as an opportunity to seize power that they have no business seizing.  Er,...how exactly are these governments of the west 'seizing power thay they have no business seizing'? These are the rules in Wales for Christmas Day. Just one day. https://gov.wales/making-christmas-bubble-friends-and-family  There is an extremely powerful argument, in my opinion, that such micromanagement of citizens lives is utterly inappropriate, and I assume an example of what the Good Doctor was stating. Unfortunately Steve, if governments did nothing then they would be branded as criminals. How and where does one when draw the line?

dr wu23 wrote: The Doctor wrote: ....... As for how they count Covid deaths, I've heard multiple things and I don't know what to believe on that. Whatever is going on with that, I think governments of the west are using it as an opportunity to seize power that they have no business seizing.  Er,...how exactly are these governments of the west 'seizing power thay they have no business seizing'?

Easy Money wrote: Lewian wrote: The Doctor wrote:   Crashing the economy in the name of public safety just doesn't work for me, nor does government mandating what people wear or don't wear on their faces. What is flawed about this is the idea that the economy would be less crashed without governments taking action. Obviously some people would be in a better situation to earn a living at times of severe lockdown measures, but surely letting infection numbers go through the roof isn't exactly a good incentive to do business. We better try to get them down and control them so that people are encouraged to go out and buy, eat out, and go to concerts without fear. Good point from Lewian here, not much could be worse for the economy than a lot of sick people with hospital bills and a long period of being too sick to work. As I mentioned before, it does not matter to me what the government does or does not mandate, I know what to do to keep myself safe and I wish others did the same. From what I read on local social media, there are still too many who do not know how to stop spreading this. One more thing about businesses. Covid shut down my business of 30 years entirely. With much time consuming difficulty I built a new business using Zoom and the internet. I make %60 of what I used to make but its enough. I'm sorry, but if people want to keep the economy rolling, they may have to get busy and learn some new methods.

Lewian wrote: That's fair enough. But now the West can only get itself into a position again where such a thing is possible by bringing numbers down rapidly. Of course we all hope for the vaccine...

rogerthat wrote: Lewian wrote: The Doctor wrote:   Crashing the economy in the name of public safety just doesn't work for me, nor does government mandating what people wear or don't wear on their faces. What is flawed about this is the idea that the economy would be less crashed without governments taking action. Obviously some people would be in a better situation to earn a living at times of severe lockdown measures, but surely letting infection numbers go through the roof isn't exactly a good incentive to do business. We better try to get them down and control them so that people are encouraged to go out and buy, eat out, and go to concerts without fear. The debate gets confused by the notion of a choice between shutting down and letting people die.  The real choice, as umair haque writes, was between containing the virus and killing it. http://eand.co/the-west-gave-up-on-wiping-out-covid-and-that-was-its-big-mistake-c880a6b026fe When you take early steps to kill the spread of covid, you can open up much more of the economy and without people feeling like it's a risk.  NZ did it.  Yeah, I get it, NZ, small country with a small population.  OK, take Korea or Japan then.  In fact, lockdowns were relatively limited in Korea or Japan because they placed much more emphasis on masks, social distancing and contact tracing. The voluntary compliance with such measures was much greater in these countries, which is why they got out of it earlier.