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plasmatopia View Drop Down
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I'm pretty pleased so far.  I'll need more listens but it's certainly the best since SUM for me (though not on the same level as that album).  I think the thing I like the least is the cover.  It's not bad, but it's possibly my least favorite Roger Dean cover.  For some reason it also bothers me that there are tiny figures in it (presumably the band).  Not sure why, just think it would look better without that.  But that's a small niggle really........I certainly seen worse covers, even on Flower King albums.  The music is what matters most, and so far I'm enjoying it.

Interesting to finally hear some thoughts from you about this album.  Kinda surprised we haven't discussed it more already.  Smile

That said, I'm still not quite sure how Islands fits into the grand scheme of TFK albums for me.  Initially there was a lot of it that didn't move me much, but that happens to me more and more and I'm not sure if that's because I've heard so many TFK albums or I'm just turning into an old and jaded prog head.

With repeated listens it has grown on me quite a bit.  Listening to it on my studio monitors really did a lot to open it up for me.  This one has a lot of interesting details that had somewhat been missing from recent TFK albums and in that sense feels like a throwback to the early albums.  And those details really make for a satisfying listen.  But most of the time I'm listening in a moving vehicle.  In that case many of those details fall by the wayside and I'm left to think about song structures and melodies.  More of the "view from 100 miles up" sort of thing.  And I'm starting to like that viewpoint too.  Familiarity has a way of making things that didn't seem to be working initially to become normal.

Like songs or sections of songs that we'd normally expect (as TFK fans) to be longer but aren't and instead seem to end prematurely.  After a few spins it seems normal I guess.  Or then I start to think even the shorter idea works in the context of all the songs.  Maybe I need to go 1000 miles up or spin the album 20 more times to really see how it all fits together.

I'm glad they tried a different approach though.
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plasmatopia View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!



I have the vinyl, but don't really trust my turntable.  It has some issues.  Someday I'd love to hear the vinyl version to hear if it's significantly different from the CD.  Seems like Roine mentioned it was mixed differently from the CD, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong.
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plasmatopia View Drop Down
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I would agree the 2017 remix of UTF sounds kinda cheesy in some respects.  I do like the newer details that Roine threw in here and there.  But I agree that having the drums and bass louder on the original feels more satisfying, at least to me.

The numbers in the database are arrived at by software which analyzes the data on the CD.  That would not be subject to differences in equipment.
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For Unfold the Future, there is also a 3rd version: the "promo version"...


Right now, I am comparing the three versions. The promo version is less compressed than the official version, but sounds "unfinished"... well, it's promo! The 2017 remix sounds cheesy to my ears. But I'm wondering: is the 2017 digital remix the same as the 2017 LP remix? I don't know the LP one.

So to be honest, the best version for me is the 2002 official version, even though it's pretty compressed. I love it because bass & drums are loud in the mix!

But I must admit it's fun to listen to three very different versions of the same GREAT album!! Wink
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Well I don't think it was originally recorded hot to create any distortion or sibilance but the 2002 version has too much compression, which is very common during that period. Clearly the case is a remix of those featured tracks has improved the experience and the other being remastered, which meant probably just a lower of overall volume has helped.
The DR website is a good reference, but always depends on what gear is being used by the contributor.
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I don't think Unfold The Future is actually brick wall limited.  To me that suggests it's audibly distorted like Rush's Vapor Trail's or the debut Flying Colors album.  Those two albums fatigue me, but UTF never did. Those can be verified by looking at waveforms that show the waveforms clipped off at the peaks.  I know I looked at them years ago, but I don't recall waveforms being clipped on the 2002 release of UTF.

Another reference to go by is this site:   http://dr.loudness-war.info/

Do a search for Flower Kings albums and click on the average dynamic range header to sort them by dynamic range.  There's no major difference between the 2002 mix and the 2017 remix from a dynamic range standpoint.  I suspect the main difference being heard is in the compression on individual tracks.  The 2017 remix does seem to reveal more and of course some parts were re-recorded, replaced, added, etc.

But I'm no audiophile and different things might fatigue different people.  I've played too much guitar and bass in loud bands (not to mention being 55 years old) to claim anything even approaching perfect hearing.

Edit:  And it's also possible some sounds that were used sound a bit harsh and/or not warm or whatever.  That could also be fatiguing.  I have an album by a local artist that I find unlistenable.  I expected to see waveforms clipping, but no - somehow the harshness and distortion was on individual tracks.


Edited by plasmatopia - November 19 2020 at 13:48
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I never noticed anything "brutal" about Unfold.  But then I don't really have high end audio equipment (never have really) and my ears were probably already shot way back then (18 years ago!!).
Noticeable with headphones, what you DON'T hear is dynamics, resolution and separation of instruments. What you DO hear is one loudness level of all instruments..This is the brickwalling people describe where the volume is simply pushed to the wall.
I am assuming you are listening to the CD and not streaming it or an MP3 from back then. Like I said the CD was terribly fatiguing. With a higher end digital system you would only be able to tell the difference with both versions......Those are the Aha! moments...

With me it was Rush~Vapor Trails in 2002. I played that CD all the time, then started to hear about the bad mastering about 5yrs later, not till they issued a badly needed remix in 2013 did I have that Aha! moment.....


Yeah, I would probably notice it more if I heard the remaster.  I only ever have heard it on CD, and it's been a while since I listened to it.  What you are saying about the dynamics does seem to be what I remember.  Probably why it took me longer to appreciate than the previous albums as I felt something was "different".  Or course, musically it was much more wild and complex and far more jazzier than previous releases (though that was always an aspect of TFK's).  In any case, there is zero chance of me getting those remastered tracks since they only come with the vinyl, correct?  No big deal, I still love that album, regardless of any ear fatigue, and I've heard far worse albums when it comes to brick walling.
That's why I love TFK, that jazzy improv, some of that is lacking in recent releases........Here are all the issues of Unfold and yes right now the 2017 remix/remastered CD versions only available with the 3-LP set.

I'll sell you mine for a mere US$1,00000000000000.00 LOL, such a deal!
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infandous View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I never noticed anything "brutal" about Unfold.  But then I don't really have high end audio equipment (never have really) and my ears were probably already shot way back then (18 years ago!!).
Noticeable with headphones, what you DON'T hear is dynamics, resolution and separation of instruments. What you DO hear is one loudness level of all instruments..This is the brickwalling people describe where the volume is simply pushed to the wall.
I am assuming you are listening to the CD and not streaming it or an MP3 from back then. Like I said the CD was terribly fatiguing. With a higher end digital system you would only be able to tell the difference with both versions......Those are the Aha! moments...

With me it was Rush~Vapor Trails in 2002. I played that CD all the time, then started to hear about the bad mastering about 5yrs later, not till they issued a badly needed remix in 2013 did I have that Aha! moment.....


Yeah, I would probably notice it more if I heard the remaster.  I only ever have heard it on CD, and it's been a while since I listened to it.  What you are saying about the dynamics does seem to be what I remember.  Probably why it took me longer to appreciate than the previous albums as I felt something was "different".  Or course, musically it was much more wild and complex and far more jazzier than previous releases (though that was always an aspect of TFK's).  In any case, there is zero chance of me getting those remastered tracks since they only come with the vinyl, correct?  No big deal, I still love that album, regardless of any ear fatigue, and I've heard far worse albums when it comes to brick walling.
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I never noticed anything "brutal" about Unfold.  But then I don't really have high end audio equipment (never have really) and my ears were probably already shot way back then (18 years ago!!).
Noticeable with headphones, what you DON'T hear is dynamics, resolution and separation of instruments. What you DO hear is one loudness level of all instruments..This is the brickwalling people describe where the volume is simply pushed to the wall.
I am assuming you are listening to the CD and not streaming it or an MP3 from back then. Like I said the CD was terribly fatiguing. With a higher end digital system you would only be able to tell the difference with both versions......Those are the Aha! moments...

With me it was Rush~Vapor Trails in 2002. I played that CD all the time, then started to hear about the bad mastering about 5yrs later, not till they issued a badly needed remix in 2013 did I have that Aha! moment.....
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I never noticed anything "brutal" about Unfold.  But then I don't really have high end audio equipment (never have really) and my ears were probably already shot way back then (18 years ago!!).
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by geekfreak geekfreak wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!




 



Totally agree with you





You mean totally agree with Mr Stolt Smile










Mmm well mmm yes
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Originally posted by geekfreak geekfreak wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!




 



Totally agree with you

You mean totally agree with Mr Stolt Smile
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!




 



Totally agree with you
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Not gotten an issue with any albums by TFK!
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by geekfreak geekfreak wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like this album for the very reason that they are not doing epics. I hear a more disciplined band with tighter writing. TFK can be just too much improvisation and jazzy for my liking at times. This is not that!
Ok...that's what I'm looking for from them. I think they can write really great songs that don't need to surpass 10min or turn into funky, jazzy musical 24 hours of Le Mans.
 

Dudes chill its TFK naff said!
This site is about bitchin and moanin...........LOL
 


True a good moaning and bitching is fun...But the new album is a sheer delightful album imho
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I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!
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I made a spoof cover art. xD
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Alright folks, I love this album. What album sounds closest to this? I've heard Banks of Eden and I liked that one but I like the easier listening factor of this one
The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Beginning to think I like the second disc a bit more than the first.

I've generally been positive about their return and I rate Banks Of Eden as one of the best albums of recent years. I also like Desolation Rose.

BTW Expressing a preference and liking some things more than others is not really bitching and moaning is it?


Nope, it's not.  At least not in my case.  I still prefer ALL the albums prior to Banks over the Banks and the albums since then.  Doesn't mean I'm complaining, as I like the last 3 albums to varying degrees (even the Alchemist album).  I just don't feel like they've ever recaptured the magic of the 1994-2000 period of the band (though Unfold is a masterpiece and SUM is a top 5 TFK album for me).

It's not like I'm surprised, as bands tend to become less interesting to me as they get older (this has been true of every one of my favorite bands, for some reason.........I'm a 51 year old musician, so I think I understand).

Anyway, I still like what they do a great deal, and as I mentioned before I feel like this new one is their strongest since SUM (though not as good as that album).  All my opinion, of course, and I'm not "bitching and moaning"  Wink
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Beginning to think I like the second disc a bit more than the first.

I've generally been positive about their return and I rate Banks Of Eden as one of the best albums of recent years. I also like Desolation Rose.

BTW Expressing a preference and liking some things more than others is not really bitching and moaning is it?
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