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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down
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Points: 20848 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 18:19
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

He put all of us on his ignore list then realized he had no one to talk to.


Would you like me to leave PA, Ian? Confused



Nope, I don't always agree with you and some of your post irritate me but I'm sure mine do the same to you. I doubt anything I could say would change your posting style. As I've said before I tend to treat some of your posts as an exercise in method acting. I'll continue to call you out when it seems appropriate but no I don't want you to leave. It's an internet forum everyone is welcome to their opinion as long as they don't denigrate or threaten other users. There's an expectation of reasonable forum behavior on sites that don't specialize in flame wars. This isn't one of those sites any more and for that I am thankful.
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Points: 11611 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 17:52
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

^ It was a joke coming out of my twisted mind. Wink

Yup, I'd rather see a grumpy member here rather than the angry ones. Hey, I also get easily angry. So I presume I wouldn't want to see myself on this forum. Too much logic spoils the fun, I'd better stop. Clown
I agree with your logic and these forums are better with you in them.
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Points: 15130 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 17:29
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Would you like me to leave PA, Ian? Confused
I don't. Your posts interest me.

thanks, Grumpy  Smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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^ It was a joke coming out of my twisted mind. Wink

Yup, I'd rather see a grumpy member here rather than the angry ones. Hey, I also get easily angry. So I presume I wouldn't want to see myself on this forum. Too much logic spoils the fun, I'd better stop. Clown
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Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

^ But he didn't ask you Grumpy. And you didn't answer me... What the hell are we doing?.. GeekLOL
^Didn't know your post was directed at me. Sorry. What page was it on?

We are trying to do the best we can with what we have on a prog forum with many angry members.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - May 31 2022 at 17:17
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

He put all of us on his ignore list then realized he had no one to talk to.

after second thought - LOL
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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^ But he didn't ask you Grumpy. And you didn't answer me... What the hell are we doing?.. GeekLOL
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

He put all of us on his ignore list then realized he had no one to talk to.


Would you like me to leave PA, Ian? Confused

I don't. Your posts interest me.
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

He put all of us on his ignore list then realized he had no one to talk to.

Would you like me to leave PA, Ian? Confused
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

It looks like David has dropped out of his own thread and left us all to it, probably because most of us disagree with him about defining and classifying Prog Rock. Tongue

The real problem is the ethics in much of this. Confused
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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^ I have to agree with Steve - analysing and interpreting are two very different things. When I write a review it is my interpretation of an album, and not an analysis.

Without meaning to get back into that other argument of David’s, analysis suggests an intention to attempt to be objective, and finding a result that is likely to be similar to others assessing the same album with a similar objective (at least, as much as possible) viewpoint.

Interpretation, on the other hand, is about my inferences, without worrying too much about whether they were what the artist intended, or whether others might feel the same way. Where analysis is more quantitative, interpretation is more qualitative, and almost entirely prone to my own subjective biases.

David has professed a personal desire for reviews to be as objective as possible, and therefore analytical. Such reviews would bore the pants off me to read, and I wouldn’t be capable of writing, even if I wanted to.

My reviews were originally written for me, because I enjoyed writing about the music I enjoyed, and for my friends, who shared similar musical interests. We would write about the albums we were enjoying. From those reviews, I was asked if I would like to try reviewing for TPA. And from my reviews on TPA, I was asked by the artists I reviewed if I would repost the reviews on PA.

It’s all been a bit of a mystery to me, because I still write my reviews in the same way I did for me and for my friends. I don’t think I write great reviews, and yet I am time after time thanked by the artists, who often say they are thrilled with them. Maybe they’re just being polite, but I’m pretty sure they are being genuine.

So for me, I don’t give a damn about analysis. I don’t even care to worry about what genre something is (apart from in the very specific role of a PA collaborator within a genre team). Music is music. I don’t care if one person thinks something is prog, and someone else does not. I just care if I like it. All music can be placed into three categories: Music I Like; Music I Don’t Like (Yet); and Music I Have Not Yet Listened To. And they are honestly (outside PA) all the categorisation that matters to me. I simply don’t see the point in expending time and energy and thought over how to define music. I’ll leave the definitions for people like David, if that’s what they enjoy doing.

[EDIT] I didn’t notice there was a new page of replies when I hit reply to Steve’s post. So the above is all a bit out of context now. Oh well, that seems about par for the course in this thread. I’ll go back into my cave now. Caveman out!




Edited by nick_h_nz - May 31 2022 at 11:12
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Points: 43679 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 10:52
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

He put all of us on his ignore list then realized he had no one to talk to.



Edited by Cristi - May 31 2022 at 10:53
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Points: 20848 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2022 at 10:49
He put all of us on his ignore list then realized he had no one to talk to.
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It looks like David has dropped out of his own thread and left us all to it, probably because most of us disagree with him about defining and classifying Prog Rock. Tongue
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

It is music. End of. Music, a gift from heaven, no matter what your religious belief. It is something to be treasured and enjoyed, not over analysed to the point of a treatise.
To some, analyzing music is something they enjoy. Nothing wrong with that. Why can't you analyze and enjoy music at the same time? Isn't that what happens when people review an album?

Music is not a gift from a fictional place. Music comes from human inspiration, suffering, or maybe boredom. Musician David Byrne wrote the following lyrics about heaven. Wink

Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
Heaven
Heaven is a place 
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens





My dear chap, interpretation of lyrics and musics is not the same as analysing them. I love interpreting, and my interpretation of the great Mr Byrne’s lyrics you quote above is that heaven is a beautifully quiet place, where we go and nothing whatsoever happens to interrupt that peace, unlike on earth.

No doubt your interpretation of the lyrics is completely different, as will be the great man himself, but that is the beauty of music and words. Unless you are hit with a sledgehammer as to meaning, words and art can be open to interpretation, and that is what the best reviewers try to do. I try my best to emulate that.

This process is completely different to analysing said work. Analysing said work involves categorising into “eclectic”, “crossover”, “related” and etc. in order to place a work and an artist into a stereotypical generic thing. There used to be a “symphonic specialist” on the site, a very shouty one at that, who would literally reject artists for that sub-genre because of particular note and musical inflections and changes, and it takes all of the joy out of the art.

By the way, I do agree with you that some people enjoy analysing such things, and there is, indeed, nothing wrong with that. Whatever floats your boat, I say. Whatever type of smoke you wish to blow out of your arse, carry on in my view. Makes no difference to me, or doesn’t concern me, excepting in one very important regard. When such people make the rules, and exclude or penalise those who take a different view, then that is when it becomes a problem, and libertarians such as myself feel free to have a jolly good rant against the machine Smile
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

It is music. End of. Music, a gift from heaven, no matter what your religious belief. It is something to be treasured and enjoyed, not over analysed to the point of a treatise.
To some, analyzing music is something they enjoy. Nothing wrong with that. Why can't you analyze and enjoy music at the same time? Isn't that what happens when people review an album?

Music is not a gift from a fictional place. Music comes from human inspiration, suffering, or maybe boredom. Musician David Byrne wrote the following lyrics about heaven. Wink

Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
Heaven
Heaven is a place 
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

 But prog rock is just a label. Don't get all wound up about labels, they're not important. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to listen to or like just one form of music, your opinion of what it is or isn't is your own opinion and if no one else agrees with you, tough titty to them.

I earnestly wish people on this site would actually just listen to and enjoy music without entering into some boring dissection about it. 

Gentlemen. Please. 

Dave, that really is a superb post... LOL I very nearly missed it, because I'd long since given up visiting this thread; so glad I had second thoughts and returned just one more time.. Clap

I was greatly enjoying Steve's Blog last night, particularly his interview with Panic Room's Jonathan Edwards; it's well worth spending half an hour with it:


I do hope Steve doesn't mind my borrowing this section for the benefit of the thread, but Jonathan states:

"We all have musical heroes and influences and when you first start making music those influences probably show through much more, but if you’re going to continue to make music yourself and grow as a songwriter and musician  you have to outgrow your influences and develop your own voice. The bottom line is that when you’re writing music it has to mean something to you… you have to give something of yourself to it and if you do that then the chances are that it’s going to sound like you and that it’s going mean something to at least some of the people listening.

In terms of what I listen to personally… well the concerts I’ve been to this last year or so have included Robert Plant, ABC, Tina Dico, Funkadelic, Snarky Puppy, Peter Gabriel, Steely Dan, Steven Wilson & Sarah Jarosz among others, so that gives you some idea… basically I’m not interested in genre… there’s so much great music of all kinds out there".


Surely, this is a much more positive and wholesome way of looking at music, as opposed to the seemingly endless definitions and sub-classifications, we can so easily get bogged down with?


Steve doesn’t mind in the slightest Smile You are right. Dave’s post is excellent and your quote from Jonathan is absolutely appropriate to this discussion.

I had a discussion with a musician a number of years ago, and we agreed that I would not print this, but in response to my asking how he created his “neo prog” music (I paraphrase) he told me in no uncertain terms that he created music, end of. Music, nothing more, nothing less. I learned an important lesson that day, and it is interesting in the interview that I posted with t last night, he quoted The Cure as being his biggest musical influence, which I found fascinating.

We will never change the mindset of a lot of people on this site who spend far too much time obsessing about this genre, or that sub-genre. It was a bloody relief, actually, when I resigned as a team collaborator because of this.

It is music. End of. Music, a gift from heaven, no matter what your religious belief. It is something to be treasured and enjoyed, not over analysed to the point of a treatise.
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

 But prog rock is just a label. Don't get all wound up about labels, they're not important. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to listen to or like just one form of music, your opinion of what it is or isn't is your own opinion and if no one else agrees with you, tough titty to them.

I earnestly wish people on this site would actually just listen to and enjoy music without entering into some boring dissection about it. 

Gentlemen. Please. 

Dave, that really is a superb post... LOL I very nearly missed it, because I'd long since given up visiting this thread; so glad I had second thoughts and returned just one more time.. Clap

I was greatly enjoying Steve's Blog last night, particularly his interview with Panic Room's Jonathan Edwards; it's well worth spending half an hour with it:


I do hope Steve doesn't mind my borrowing this section for the benefit of the thread, but Jonathan states:

"We all have musical heroes and influences and when you first start making music those influences probably show through much more, but if you’re going to continue to make music yourself and grow as a songwriter and musician  you have to outgrow your influences and develop your own voice. The bottom line is that when you’re writing music it has to mean something to you… you have to give something of yourself to it and if you do that then the chances are that it’s going to sound like you and that it’s going mean something to at least some of the people listening.

In terms of what I listen to personally… well the concerts I’ve been to this last year or so have included Robert Plant, ABC, Tina Dico, Funkadelic, Snarky Puppy, Peter Gabriel, Steely Dan, Steven Wilson & Sarah Jarosz among others, so that gives you some idea… basically I’m not interested in genre… there’s so much great music of all kinds out there".


Surely, this is a much more positive and wholesome way of looking at music, as opposed to the seemingly endless definitions and sub-classifications, we can so easily get bogged down with?
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:



But prog rock is just a label. Don't get all wound up about labels, they're not important. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to listen to or like just one form of music, your opinion of what it is or isn't is your own opinion and if no one else agrees with you, tough titty to them.

I earnestly wish people on this site would actually just listen to and enjoy music without entering into some boring dissection about it. 

Gentlemen. Please. 

Completely agreed. In fact, whenever I review a record for the site, I completely disregard the PA scoring system. I don't give a crap about whether an album is "essential to a prog collection" but rather if it's just a good album in general Smile Plus, I've always hated reviews for "fringe" bands like Radiohead that use the reviews to debate whether the band in question is prog or not. They're on the site, so why continue to be bitter about it?
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Ie
IT DOESN'T MATTER.

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