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Topic ClosedWhat happened to TOP 100???
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StyLaZyn View Drop Down
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 09:32
Originally posted by TR!P TR!P wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Up to this point its been a popularity poll with the most known artists reaping the benefits.
 
that may be true, but these bands like Pink Floyd, Dream Theater etc. that have multiple albums up in high ranks are there for a reason, and that reason is, they'er good albums
 
you say the most well known artists reap the benefits while lesser known bands suffer, well rightfully so, the most popular bands are popular for a reason, this isnt' MTV or any "top..20 pop hits"
 
the majority of the bands at the top of the lists are good bands that have made multiple good albums, this is why they'er so highly seated
 
sure, i do get what your saying how the lesser known bands dont get as much votes/reviews purely because of the lack of knowledge about them, but thats just one factor we cant really controll so its not really anyones fault
 
surely an album by a popular well known band which gets 50 5stars and 50 4stars should be seated higher then an album by a lesser known band who got 50 5stars only
 
Provided we are comfortable with mainstream Prog artists ruling the charts. While I listen to, and prefer, more accessible and melodic Prog, that is merely a preference and in truth may not be fully in-line with what Prog is. Some of the most important Prog is noticeably difficult for the average listener to enjoy.
 
I will raise a few tempers with this idea, but is DT's SFAM important? Not really because it is not original. The idea had been done before many times. Is Yes's Tales important? Most certainly in its nature. SFAM is more listener friendly thus easily attracts the non-Prog fan but Tales almost defines what Prog is about and even the most devout Prog fan may not find listening pleasure in it.
 
 
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 09:27
M@X now you should concentrate yourself on the ratings of the individual album because how written in other thread there are weird cases (album with 1 rating and decimals [for example 3,45/1])
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Points: 4028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 09:04
Guys,

I've updated the TOP list with detailled explanations...
http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp


Hope this help ....
Prog On !
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Points: 69 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 09:03
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Up to this point its been a popularity poll with the most known artists reaping the benefits.
 
that may be true, but these bands like Pink Floyd, Dream Theater etc. that have multiple albums up in high ranks are there for a reason, and that reason is, they'er good albums
 
you say the most well known artists reap the benefits while lesser known bands suffer, well rightfully so, the most popular bands are popular for a reason, this isnt' MTV or any "top..20 pop hits"
 
the majority of the bands at the top of the lists are good bands that have made multiple good albums, this is why they'er so highly seated
 
sure, i do get what your saying how the lesser known bands dont get as much votes/reviews purely because of the lack of knowledge about them, but thats just one factor we cant really controll so its not really anyones fault
 
surely an album by a popular well known band which gets 50 5stars and 50 4stars should be seated higher then an album by a lesser known band who got 50 5stars only
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 08:41
Originally posted by Tichy Tichy wrote:

Who is SBB, only 28 people voted for it, how could it be found a place in a Top List, I'm not talking about music quality, lyrics or songs. It's not the best 100 list, I don't argue that who's the best or how could WYWH be the best album in prog history, even though it's not a prog album at all (at least not fully-qualified)
 
The point about SBB and its rank I think shows the importance of using the current calculation. Such albums have previously suffered due to lack of voting and it detracted from their observed significance. Hopefully this issue will cause rise for individuals to listen to the album and discover its significance.
 
Up to this point its been a popularity poll with the most known artists reaping the benefits.
 
 
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 08:35
One day passed and "Scenes From a Memory" fell from 53 down to 69 and are now behind "LTE 2"... And S.B.B.'s "Memento z banalnym tryptykiem" which was way beyond the top 100 just a month ago is now number 13...

BTW "Images and Words" are on the verge of falling out of the top 100...
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 08:30
Originally posted by Soul Dreamer Soul Dreamer wrote:

^^^ What is realistic? That the records you like are more in front? Can be but to my humble opinion the popularity of a record (=the number of entries) should be incorporated as well, and I think now that's underrated.
 
Weighted averages work best in this type of rating.
 
 
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Points: 32 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 08:27
It's the silliest Top100 I've ever seen. Even when Atom Heart Mother was No. 1, it's better, at least funny and obvious to be fixed soon:)
 
Who is SBB, only 28 people voted for it, how could it be found a place in a Top List, I'm not talking about music quality, lyrics or songs. It's not the best 100 list, I don't argue that who's the best or how could WYWH be the best album in prog history, even though it's not a prog album at all (at least not fully-qualified)
 
This is Top 100 list, it's not for progressive rock listeners, but for prog newbies. They want to learn much more about progressive rock or are suggested by a friend, check out the progarchives and wonder who's the most populer albums and bands: Bacamarte, SBB, Focus, PFM? (Don't piss off, I love the last two of them, but these groups are not a starting point or the most known samples)
 
And why are all the polls about Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, ELP, VDGG; because we know them better and want to discuss about them, even their worst albums. Is there anyone to see or remember a Bacamarte or SBB poll? Because they are not popular, 500 people did not vote for their albums, 200 people did not review their album, I don't know maybe %80 of progarchives visitors did not listen it. I don't care about how SBB, etc. are musically great, they did not left a mark, were not discussed or unfairly criticised, their name were not heard from who did not know what the prog is. So the list must be changed soon, because it's meaningless now and don't forget that this list Top 100, not the best 100. And how can ELP almost out of it?
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Points: 69 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 07:15
hey this is prob my first proper time on the forums but i visit the actual site avidly
 
and i too noticed the change today, i guess it is in a way technicaly better so im not complaining, so well done to ya'
 
it was quite odd to see the first time i realised it though, after seeing Ayreons "human equation" as the number.1 Prog.Metal album (i wouldnt really agree with that personly, but i guess ratings speak for themselves)
 
ive just written up a review (Agalloch's "the mantle") recently that you'd prob find on them most recent reviews written part on the home page of the site, in which i touch on the ranking
 
its crazy to think a year (or maybe more ago) when i saw "The Mantle" by Agollach on the top.20 prog.metal list to now'a'days where its not even listed on the top.100 prog.metal albums list
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Points: 4028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 06:59
Guys, thanks for your comments ...

I am currently still improving the calculcations so , more and more movement in the LISTS in the coming hours ;-)

Thanks for your suppot !

Max
Prog On !
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Points: 456 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 06:45
Well then, we should at least the full picture of it, if that is case. Otherwise, it appears to make no sense to the casual visitor
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 05:47
Originally posted by Asphalt Asphalt wrote:

Ok, personally, I think it's total bogus. explodingjosh and Logan have already made it pretty clear that it is not in the least coherent. Let's take 10 to 12

10
1975 4.43
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(103 ratings) 		HARMONIUM
Si On Avait Besoin D'une 5ième Saison		 Symphonic Prog
(Studio Album)
11
1974 4.43
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(73 ratings) 		FOCUS
Hamburger Concerto 		Symphonic Prog
(Studio Album)
12
1977 4.43
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(349 ratings) 		PINK FLOYD
Animals		 Psychedelic/Space Rock
(Studio Album)

Now pop-quiz. If three albums are rated just the same, should we order them by which has the most number of ratings first? It would seem logical, since that would virtually mean that album could've scored lower. Yet it didn't, so that means it's not only more popular, but also more appreciated. Or maybe we should put the album with the smallest number or ratings first? It's not so popular, but it got better ratings overall.

Oh, wait, I've got an idea, how about neither? Any of these would at least make sense, so I suggest we take a completely random criteria for arranging these albums!

As Brian would say, THAT IS NOT COOL, MAN! THAT IS NOT COOL!
 
These albums only have the same rating when the numbers are rounded to 2 decimal places. The values are calculated to higher precision than that, so for example, Focus could have 4.43205 to Floyd's 4.43203 and therefore be ranked higher.
What?
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Points: 1320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 05:25
This is not good, I'm afraid. I even did not look at top 100, I don't care about it, but the new rating average is simply not correct.
 
How on earth only one rating worth 5 stars can possibly produce the overall rating average of that item worth 3.84???
 
See this for example (a random specimen)
 

SPLIT ENZ "Split Enz" ratings distribution

3.84 / 5
(1 ratings)
Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music (100%)
100%
Excellent addition to any prog music collection (0%)
0%
Good, but non-essential (0%)
0%
Collectors/fans only (0%)
0%
Poor. Only for completionists (0%)
0%
ShockedOuchConfused
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Asphalt View Drop Down
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Points: 456 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 04:34
Ok, personally, I think it's total bogus. explodingjosh and Logan have already made it pretty clear that it is not in the least coherent. Let's take 10 to 12

10
1975 4.43
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(103 ratings) 		HARMONIUM
Si On Avait Besoin D'une 5ième Saison		 Symphonic Prog
(Studio Album)
11
1974 4.43
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(73 ratings) 		FOCUS
Hamburger Concerto 		Symphonic Prog
(Studio Album)
12
1977 4.43
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(349 ratings) 		PINK FLOYD
Animals		 Psychedelic/Space Rock
(Studio Album)

Now pop-quiz. If three albums are rated just the same, should we order them by which has the most number of ratings first? It would seem logical, since that would virtually mean that album could've scored lower. Yet it didn't, so that means it's not only more popular, but also more appreciated. Or maybe we should put the album with the smallest number or ratings first? It's not so popular, but it got better ratings overall.

Oh, wait, I've got an idea, how about neither? Any of these would at least make sense, so I suggest we take a completely random criteria for arranging these albums!

As Brian would say, THAT IS NOT COOL, MAN! THAT IS NOT COOL!
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Points: 4411 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 04:34
Originally posted by M@X M@X wrote:

Yes , there is been a upgrade to the algo , it's now based on the more adequate weighted average calculation (more info here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted_average )
 
;-) Any comments sor far ?
 
In my opinion that's a correct move. It's important not to have in the main page only the most popular albums. This site's objective is to open the door to the huge amount of prog bands and artists that risk to remain outside the official "best of" poll.
 
The only remark, as I told before, is that I don't understand why so many albums has been downrated. Hybla Act I by Randone (2005), for example. The 73% of people has rated it with 5 stars. The finaly rating is below 4. Before the site's changings it was 4,30.
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Points: 4411 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 04:30
I don't understand why the most part of the albums of the ISP genre has been downrated. Cherry Five, LuxAde, Nostos and many other are between 3 and 4!!Confused
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 04:29
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Mike: Math is not my strong suit (and it's late and I'm too tired to try to figure it out -- plus this site is not agreeing with my computer so pages time out), so I wonder why do all the unrated albums in the top 4000 now have a value of 3.86 (by my fatigued checking)?  I have a theory, but...

I don't find that useful.  Taken from the top 4000 most popular albums (CLICK): Every non-rated album in the top 4000 is given a rating of 3.86 and they all fall between 1224 and 2533 (they are surrounded by reviewed albums).  Between 2882 and 3286 all the albums have 2 ratings and are given 3.83. Between 2881 and 3153, the first albums only rated once are found, and are given 3.84. And at 3379 to 4000 are all the other albums given one star - at 3.83.  All of the albums only rated three times are given a score of 3.85, 3.84, or 3.83.

The album at 4000 with one review/rating of 4 by Sean Trane which gets a list rating of 3.83.  I see looking at the Kevin Ayers page that the album ratings do vary slightly between the albums only rated once... from 3.79 to 3.83.

Actually, I know notice for less variation over all in the rating of albums from band pages.  As has been mentioned, low-rated ones are bumped up and high-rated ones go down.

King Lerxt: Rush is now at 162.  Asia's one review was at 2 stars, and the other is a rating without review.  Xang has a 3 and a 5 (from collabs), and a 3 from another reviewer, plus one rating without review.  Incidentally, Asia has three other reviews with a 2 star review each that score 3.70, and others with but one three star review each score 3.82.

161
2007 3.73
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(2 ratings) 		ASIA
Live In Nottingham		 Prog Related
(Live)
162
2007 3.73
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(57 ratings) 		RUSH
Snakes & Arrows		 Art Rock
(Studio Album)
163
2007 3.73
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(4 ratings) 		XANG
The Last Of The Lasts


There's obviously a lot of stuff that's wrong here. Could the new algorithm be perfected/fixed somehow? If not, I got to agree that we should go back to using the previous one. Not because of what albums are and are not in the new TOP 100.

Some reviews not being counted at all is an insult. And the rest of what Logan's pointing out is completely absurd.
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In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
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andu View Drop Down
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 04:00
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

Could anyone with better knowledge of math explain the new algorithm and it's characteristics? The Wikipedia article speakes Chinese to me. Confused
 
If you're familar with how GPA's are calculated in college that's a weighted average.............................................


Thanks! We don't have a GPA (and I don't know what the acronym stands for), in my country we just sum up the number of credits multiplied with the grades to count the whole year's "weight".

Let's now wait to find out what X and W are...
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Points: 312 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 03:35
So what's the new algorithm? This top-100 seems absolutely incoherent. the one before was so much more reflecting values at stake
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2007 at 03:30
Originally posted by Dirk Dirk wrote:

Floyd on first position, PFM in top 10 and Bacamarte on14th position,Grobschnitt's Solar music live back in top 100, i'm definitely not complaining Thumbs%20Up. And indeed if this thread wasn't here i wouldn't have noticed for a month.



Me neither! I couldn't tell you if this way of measuring is better or not, but it still looks like a an incredibly thrilling Top-100 to me. Great to be part of such an amazing site!

P.S. I do agree about leaving out proto-prog and prog-related bands, though...

Edited by fuxi - July 11 2007 at 03:33
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