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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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 Posted: April 16 2012 at 07:23 |
 Atavachron wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
I don't agree with gay marriage but that's about it. |
I don't even have that problem, if they want to wed civilly (is that a word) at the town hall, fine with me...
my only slight reserve would be the adoption rights (obviously lesbians are not concerned by adoption), it is about the kid's chances to actually grow and live his own sexuality he feels right for him: would he find it normal to be heterosexual if he had two men as parents (the issue does intervene as well, if he has two women as parents) |
Yes he would; I had numerous friends when I was younger, both men and women, with gay parents (usually one of their natural parents who later began a gay life), and they all turned out straight. A household does not necessarily transfer lifestyle or sexual preference.
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Yeah, I can see that clearly happen in most cases, but I guess it would depend on how hardcore gay the "parents" would be (and in this case, I'm thinking more of lesbians than homos... some are really anti-men) and of course the sex of the child (lesbians having a girl or homos adopting a boy)
The T wrote:
Poligamy should be allowed too. |
How about poliandry??  
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
IMHO Marriage is the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law.
So I don't believe in gay marriage.
But I do believe that single people can adopt if they have a stable position that ensure the kids wealth, no matter the sexual preference of the parent,
There are millions of abandoned kids, and gay couples (or single gay persons) are as good parents as heterosexual couples.
Sounds contradictory, but that's my position.
Iván
Note: I believe in equal rights, not in special rights.
For example, in my country they have created femicide, if you kill a woman you have a larger conviction, that's absurd
Gay or straight you can only marry persons of the opposite sex
But adopting is a right that gay or straight share equally |
Ivŕn buddy,
Are you not confusing civil marriage with religious marriage, in this issue? I don't favor gays trying to force the church gates open to wed, but they are indeed welcome in some countries to marry
How do you treat the people who are married only at city hall? It's perfectily legal, yet they've not gone to do that religiously
Yeah, I agree that surrevaluating the women's value to men is illegal (same with babies, cops, priests, politicians or judges & lawyers). Someone could attack Peru for this!!
Intentionally killing someone (whoever it may be) is killing someone, regardless of who he/she was the victim
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:50 |
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I bet Mitt Romney says that in his next campaign speech.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:47 |
Well CPicard you may be talking about a different issue, I am referring to the US situation. It's true though, like in my state of NJ..there are civil unions as well as like 350 laws that "have unions on the same level as marriage" or something like that. I think wow...just use the M word and make it easier! A decent majority of the state supports it. It's always a moral argument, but man...people can find a way to work economics into everything! If NJ was to legalize same sex marriage: " the State’s gross receipt tax revenues would rise by
$7.2 million per year, and 1,400 new jobs would be created in relevant
industries. " :O
Edited by JJLehto - April 16 2012 at 06:50
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:39 |
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I think a satirical campaign for the right for gay men and transgendered women to have abortions is hilarious in a strange and evil sort of way.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:32 |
Ah, and 'nobody gives a damn about dykes'. I remember that one.
If I were asked this question face to face I'd say something like 'I support gay rights', but that is a lie. I don't support gay rights. I'm not out in the streets waving picket signs and shouting. I'm not active in any political field. I'm not against gay rights, but I'm too lazy to care. I'm not in a homosexual relationship - fancy I never will be. These rules do not apply to me. Same as with abortion, these rules don't apply. Hey, I'd fight for gay males' rights to have abortions. I'd carry signs and start petitions. That seems like a worthy cause. Child-killing, sodomy, religion, atheism, charity, chastity, cancer, the lottery - it all seems blearily similar to me these days.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Lŕ, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:14 |
JJLehto wrote:
I did always find the "civil union" thing kind of funny. Guess it's easier to accept "they are pretty much married" but not having to say the word.
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It depends: when the PACS was discussed in the National Assembly, some people wanted to extend the PACS to a solidarity contract between... brothers and sisters... (needless to say, the representatives who defended this idea were given suspicious glares...) It was so obvious for everyone that the PACS was nearly "marriage for homosexual people" that our fundies tried to turn it into some of kind of general assistance contract. So, it makes clear that even the words "civil union" can be unacceptable for some people.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:12 |
JJLehto wrote:
I did always find the "civil union" thing kind of funny. Guess it's easier to accept "they are pretty much married" but not having to say the word.
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That is basically the issue eh? People(some) are afraid of using the word marriage in this regard, because they feel it will kill the sanctity of the "original" one - ie man and woman. There is of course no other world than the one we project through society.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:03 |
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I remember South Park doing a great episode about "civil unions" about how it was basically marriage with a different name to not upset fundies. Except in South Park, instead of using the term "civil unions", it was "butt buddies".
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 06:00 |
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I did always find the "civil union" thing kind of funny. Guess it's easier to accept "they are pretty much married" but not having to say the word.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Lŕ, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:56 |
Textbook wrote:
Well you should be able to do that stuff without being married. |
In France, we have the PACS - Pacte Civil de Solidarité (Solidarity Civil Pact, roughly translated): it allows people of same or different sex to live together with most of the same rights or obligations as a married couple (it's a bit more complicated than that, but I'm not sure to have the time to translate the whole law in English!) It's NOT the same thing as marriage, even civil marriage (yeah, in France, we don't need a priest to get married). It's clear that it had been created to give to homosexual couples the same "legality" than heterosexual couples, but some heterosexual couples have contracted PACS, for... some... reasons... that I don't really understand. 
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:53 |
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It's strange how you don't hear more people arguing for polygamy. Post religion, if everyone involved wants to give it a try, why not? I know two families that had a daddy and two mommies, both produced children, both sets of children are totally normal and functional.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:49 |
The T wrote:
I'm quite sure a lot of men are actually married to their chairs... |
Quite a few of them hang around on PA 
The T wrote:
Poligamy should be allowed too. |
I'm fine with it.
Besides, most people have enough sh*t being married to one person.
3?
Have fun...
Edited by JJLehto - April 16 2012 at 05:51
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:44 |
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Like we were saying, just admit your true convictions.
The argument makes no sense:
"Its ok to adopt, but marriage is too far!"
Sooooo it's OK to more or less be married, and raise a child, but don't actually get married?
That's a cover...or a very very odd belief.
The rights thing makes no sense.
There are many many people who are uncomfortable and even hate the idea of gay marriage, think its immoral and will destroy our "moral fiber" whatever that is...just say so!!
I agree Textbook, what's real funny is the want to get married in a church...that most likely hates what you're doing. Hell I don't even want to get married in a church...not sure why a homosexual couple would want to.
That's just me though.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:38 |
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Well you should be able to do that stuff without being married.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Lŕ, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:34 |
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Yes, gay marriage is meaningful: it allows you to have the rights of heterosexual couples (and adoption is one of these rights, at least in France), including having less taxes to pay, being the legal inheritor of each other, etc... It's a social protection.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:27 |
Is sucking appropriate in a thread about gays you mean? I'm really not sure where this is going. But anyway, to actually speak on my views on this topic, I've never really understood why they're so hungry for legal marriage. In the Western world at least, people are becoming increasingly tolerant of same sex couples openly cohabiting. The likelihood of being arrested or beaten for doing this is slowly but surely decreasing over time. If I were gay, I would think that would be enough. I don't know why I'd clamour for marriage. If I could go "I'm gay and this is my life partner and we have sex, like this, poom, poom, poom, alright alright I was leaving now anyway" in a public place without fear of reprisal, I'd feel satisfied I think. I don't know why one needs the archaic thumbs up from "the man" that marriage is. Gay couples can appoint each other as legal guardians or order their wills or enter other types of arrangements, arguably more purposeful/meaningful than marriage, to have their affairs arranged how they wish them to be regarding their loved one. Why you need to walk down the aisle and have a priest go "HOOWAY" escapes me. BUT all of that I just said is NOT an argument to not allow gay marriage, it's just why I don't feel that passionate about it. My stance on gay marriage, is hey, go ahead I guess, I just don't think it's that meaningful. I would certainly never oppose any attempt to legalise it. I just think rather than fussing over a silly old rite, gay groups should be trying to bring more attention to where the real problems are, such as Africa with its often beyond horrific treatment of homosexuals. It feels a bit "first world problems" to me.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14258
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:11 |
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Appropriate?
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:10 |
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SUCKS!
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14258
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
IMHO Marriage is the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law.
So I don't believe in gay marriage.
But I do believe that single people can adopt if they have a stable position that ensure the kids wealth, no matter the sexual preference of the parent,
There are millions of abandoned kids, and gay couples (or single gay persons) are as good parents as heterosexual couples.
Sounds contradictory, but that's my position.
Iván
Note: I believe in equal rights, not in special rights.
For example, in my country they have created femicide, if you kill a woman you have a larger conviction, that's absurd
Gay or straight you can only marry persons of the opposite sex
But adopting is a right that gay or straight share equally
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THIS!
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: April 16 2012 at 05:05 |
I think it's about time Ivan came out and told us the honest truth about how he feels about gay men. That he disapproves of them because of sincerely held religious convictions of course.
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Your thoughts on gay rights?
