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Henry Plainview 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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 Posted: January 27 2011 at 04:26 |
 lazland wrote:
This, in spades. I respect everyone's right to like or dislike a piece of work, but I will never understand the attitude that because it was/is popular, it is somehow bad. It isn't.
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Who has said this? We're all arguing against a position that nobody in the discussion is willing to defend! Just like when we complain about pop fans who won't listen to anything besides Top 40 or elitist avant-garde fans who only like constant dissonance or symphonic fans who are close-minded and won't try anything new or prog metal fans who are close minded and only like prog metal or Raga Rock fans for being complete jerks and losers (although that last one is only because it's easy to pick on people who don't exist). Does stating our dislike of a stereotype validate us in some way? This is something that comes up not just here but fairly frequently on the internet generally (less charitable communities call their version of this behavior a "circlejerk") and I find it baffling.
Also, Watcher, I didn't see the post you refer to in the OP, but I am 99% sure that poster was joking when he called your choices cliche. Or perhaps he was annoyed that you were adding a post in the recent purchases thread when someone on this site buying ELP and Caravan is not exactly revelatory. I don't know, I'd have to see the post and who made it to read any intent into it without guessing, but you're not going to find any serious opposition to listening to well-regarded albums of a certain genre before trying to find the obscure stuff.
Edited by Henry Plainview - January 27 2011 at 04:31
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13780
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 03:57 |
Blacksword wrote:
WatcherOfTheSkies88 wrote:
Ever since I've joined the PA boards, I've noticed some posters who will hate certain progressive rock songs/albums just because they happen to be popular among the majority of rock/progressive rock fans. For example, one poster made fun of me because I recently bought some albums that he deemed "cliche". FYI, those albums were Soft Machine's first 5 albums, Caravan's 2nd and 3rd albums, and ELP's first. I haven't heard those albums before, so why would it be bad to listen to them, just because they are popular? Maybe they are popular for a reason (i.e. they have great music on them!)? Just because an album is "cliche", does that mean I should never listen to it? And just cuz I bought those albums right now, doesn't mean I'm not going to get to the more obscure/underrated albums released by those artists later. Anyway, that's besides the point. I just have never understood why some progressive rock fans refuse to like popular/highly rated songs/albums just because they are popular. Whether a song/album is popular, or totally obscure... all that really matters is if the music is good. Am I wrong? I happen to think that "Close to the Edge", "Karn Evil 9", "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" and "Starless" are among the best songs I've ever heard... and that Third, ITCOTCK, CTTE, Nursery Chryme and Pawn Hearts are among the best albums I've ever heard. But I also love many more obscure progressive rock songs/albums. Does that make me a bad progressive rock fan? Do you consider yourself a progressive rock fan that only likes/listens to obscure progressive rock and hates any of it that is popular or highly rated? If so, why?
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I don't think the stated reason some people dislike popular prog is because of its popularity. For many, bands like Genesis, Yes etc, are simply not experimental enough, and are therefore less deserving of a prog tag.
At the end of the day, there is no such thing as a good or bad music, there is only music you do like and music you don't like. Don't let the opinions of others get to you. |
This, in spades. I respect everyone's right to like or dislike a piece of work, but I will never understand the attitude that because it was/is popular, it is somehow bad. It isn't.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 03:13 |
WatcherOfTheSkies88 wrote:
Ever since I've joined the PA boards, I've noticed some posters who will hate certain progressive rock songs/albums just because they happen to be popular among the majority of rock/progressive rock fans. For example, one poster made fun of me because I recently bought some albums that he deemed "cliche". FYI, those albums were Soft Machine's first 5 albums, Caravan's 2nd and 3rd albums, and ELP's first. I haven't heard those albums before, so why would it be bad to listen to them, just because they are popular? Maybe they are popular for a reason (i.e. they have great music on them!)? Just because an album is "cliche", does that mean I should never listen to it? And just cuz I bought those albums right now, doesn't mean I'm not going to get to the more obscure/underrated albums released by those artists later. Anyway, that's besides the point. I just have never understood why some progressive rock fans refuse to like popular/highly rated songs/albums just because they are popular. Whether a song/album is popular, or totally obscure... all that really matters is if the music is good. Am I wrong? I happen to think that "Close to the Edge", "Karn Evil 9", "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" and "Starless" are among the best songs I've ever heard... and that Third, ITCOTCK, CTTE, Nursery Chryme and Pawn Hearts are among the best albums I've ever heard. But I also love many more obscure progressive rock songs/albums. Does that make me a bad progressive rock fan? Do you consider yourself a progressive rock fan that only likes/listens to obscure progressive rock and hates any of it that is popular or highly rated? If so, why?
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I don't think the stated reason some people dislike popular prog is because of its popularity. For many, bands like Genesis, Yes etc, are simply not experimental enough, and are therefore less deserving of a prog tag.
At the end of the day, there is no such thing as a good or bad music, there is only music you do like and music you don't like. Don't let the opinions of others get to you.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 03:08 |
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I don't hate popular prog, but I do feel irritated once in a while by people who worship the popular masterpieces without rational valuation of these albums. I'd much rather see people write good, critical reviews about lesser known masterpieces of the genre.
Furthermore I must admit that I do approach 'popular prog' with much care. Often these albums are easy to get into or have an amazing production. The latter can really be blessing, but somehow a good recording can make people less critical toward composition and level of inventiveness.
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 02:44 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
WatcherOfTheSkies88 wrote:
\Anyway, that's besides the point. I just have never understood why some progressive rock fans refuse to like popular/highly rated songs/albums just because they are popular.
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Who does this? I've never seen anybody do this. So much of the discussion here is a war waged against non-existent strawmen, and these strawmen always have one primary characteristic: insincerity. Conveniently, insincerity is also almost impossible to prove. Perhaps it's something we fear within ourselves?
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Yeah that's a really good point.
In the Court of the Crimson King. Only 7% of total ratings are below 4 stars. If anything, it's the opposite... most prog fans are corrupted by popularity. I mean seriously - Moonchild is so awful! 
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 02:30 |
WatcherOfTheSkies88 wrote:
\Anyway, that's besides the point. I just have never understood why some progressive rock fans refuse to like popular/highly rated songs/albums just because they are popular.
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Who does this? I've never seen anybody do this. So much of the discussion here is a war waged against non-existent strawmen, and these strawmen always have one primary characteristic: insincerity. Conveniently, insincerity is also almost impossible to prove. Perhaps it's something we fear within ourselves?
Edited by Henry Plainview - January 27 2011 at 02:33
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19643
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 02:13 |
stonebeard wrote:
Anyone who hates highly rated stuff just for that reason is a hipster and we should shun them. |
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 02:10 |
Right, I wasn't around when prog was being "invented", so I hold no historical respect for "In the Court of the Crimson King". And let me tell you - it is massively overrated. It has two good songs, 2 all right songs and one truly awful (Moonchild). I don't not like it because it's popular - but maybe that makes me hate it more, that everyone gives it five stars. It may be ground-breaking, but it's just not a great album in my opinion.
But really, popularity does not equal greatness. Yes, popular albums CAN be great, but when you're talking about old sentimental albums, they sometimes have the tendency to be overrated in my opinion. Also nothing wrong with listening to obscure stuff. It can be great to - it can be just as great as the popular albums, but because no one's heard it, no one's going to tell you that.
Mastosis wrote:
I don't care if it's popular or not; I don't let other people dictate my musical taste. I like it because I like, not because some random dude I've never met before tells me to like it. |
I agree with this to an extent but I am very unlikely to buy an album that has a one star rating on this website, for example. Usually I go for ones that are fairly well-rated, or try to listen to a track or two first.
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petrica
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 133
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 02:03 |
Mastosis wrote:
I don't care if it's popular or not; I don't let other people dictate my musical taste. I like it because I like, not because some random dude I've never met before tells me to like it.
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Good point. I'm always keeping an eye on what people are saying. But the final decision should be of course a personal one.
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 01:51 |
I think it comes down to the old tradition, that the fewer people have heard something, the better it must be. It's absolute tosh anyway, but it's the attitude that fuels the indie scene, and obviously we have some 'indie proggers' here (not a compliment).
My opinion: If you enjoy something, great, doesn't matter what it is, or how popular it is, and no-one else has to share your view either, so why bother trying to force anyone else to?
Edited by JS19 - January 27 2011 at 01:52
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29285
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 01:50 |
We are talking about 'inverted snobbery'. This is an offshoot of the whole mentality surrounding Punk and has been adopted in some respect towards 'progressive rock music'.
The bands that come into the potential hate category are Yes and ELP mainly because they were massively popular. Its okay to like early Genesis but not anything after 1975. Its extremely cool to like anything from Italy as it was largely undiscovered.And Gentle Giant are the band you must like especially as no one hardly took any notice of them when they were around. The height of good taste!
Yep basically I agree with the OP. 
Edited by richardh - January 27 2011 at 01:50
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8602
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 01:22 |
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The more popular prog, at least the classics, owed more to distribution than quality. The most popular bands (Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis, ELP, Jethro Tull) all had major record label contracts. Before the internet, you pretty much got what the local record store had or maybe mail order something you were lucky enough to know about. With what I have discovered of the classic era due to the internet, many of those popular bands would not have made it to my collection.
Worth ridiculing someone over? Of course not. But I likewise will not listen to any assertion that popularity has any basis on quality.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 01:01 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
No. Certain prog is popular because it's bad.
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My opinion as well. Of course there are, and always will be, people who hate prog (or ANY genre of music) bands that are popular.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14504
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 00:29 |
Without being constrained by anybody, yesterday I have listened to:
Artension Anekdoten Tuatha De Danann Ron Geesin Senmuth Hiro Yanagida Can Ska-P
I don't know if it means anything. There are no connections of any kind between Can and Ska-P.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Mastosis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 24 2010
Location: Siberian Divide
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Points: 119
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Posted: January 27 2011 at 00:13 |
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I don't care if it's popular or not; I don't let other people dictate my musical taste. I like it because I like, not because some random dude I've never met before tells me to like it.
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A wise man once said, " I have always wanted to be quoted." 
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 23:48 |
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I've tried, time and again, to enjoy rush and pink floyd. They bore me to tears. Do I dislike them because they're popular? No, I hate them because they're about as interesting as watching paint dry. The fact that people seem to get their rocks off with these plodding dullards is perplexing, but well, what can you do...
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 23:45 |
No, it just comes up more.
I, for instance, dislike plenty of bands/albums that aren't popular to go along with my dislike of Genesis, Camel's The Snow Goose, and Soft Machine's Third but they come up a lot more due to their popularity.
It's just more noticeable when you dislike something everyone else likes.
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 Time always wins.
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8784
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 23:41 |
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Don't understand what's wrong with liking music that's well known and loved at all. A lot of my favorite albums are widely recognised as being great - like Pawn Hearts, Relayer, Doomsday Afternoon, etc. .. the fact that some are less widely recognised, like Fat Again, doesn't make the music any better or worse.
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SaltyJon
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 08 2008
Location: Location
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Points: 28772
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 23:24 |
WatcherOfTheSkies88 wrote:
FYI, those albums were Soft Machine's first 5 albums, Caravan's 2nd and 3rd albums, and ELP's first.
Do you consider yourself a progressive rock fan that only likes/listens to obscure progressive rock and hates any of it that is popular or highly rated? If so, why?
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For what it's worth, I'd say those were all great purchases. That's the only ELP album I can really enjoy, and I love the other two bands here. I don't only listen to obscure stuff. I do listen to more of it, because most of the RIO/Avant stuff hasn't gotten much press over the years, but I also enjoy a lot of the "big" groups (Yes, Zappa, VdGG, Gentle Giant, King crimson, etc).
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WatcherOfTheSkies88
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 22 2010
Location: Hawaii
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Points: 79
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Posted: January 26 2011 at 23:10 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
No. Certain prog is popular because it's bad.
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That makes sense. 
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Do you hate certain prog because of popularity?
