Why DO women like prog?

Henry Plainview wrote: LOL, Teo man, this was not a good thread to be necro'd for you... TheGazzardian wrote: I miss having Raff around here. I don't.

Yeah, well, I'd swap having her back for having your annoying ass around here any day.



Edited by Slartibartfast - November 20 2011 at 14:56

Meddler wrote: A lot of the girls i know are into (or at least like some) modern prog, but old stuff doesn't work. But I mostly listen to 00's prog anyway.  This one girl I know was listening to TMV and started giggiling saying Cedric's voice her feel all happy inside.

That's your cue to say, "Yeah, I'll make you feel happy inside, too, if you know what I mean."

It's weird to think that back in 2006 Celine Dion and Barry White were considered "women's music."

Best.

Now that's, again, some pretensious, if somewhat correct answer... what they told you in art or music or philosophy school is all right my friend, and you can for sure make some here dizzy with the Focault references, but that's the problem, I only hear studied, well-memorized arguments being put here, some rules about what is what and what is not.... the music of the future being built by the cities?? There will be no cities my friend! The way of the USDOLLAR is turning everything into a factory, and that's what is going to happen with music in the future (it already is happening)... You like the logic in Jara's songs, man, those kind of artists are the first that are going to dissappear when the music-building-cities finally devour the remaining artists that still do art JUST for ART's sake (well, in Jara's case, also for society's case).

The T wrote: Don't like to dance, can't, feel embarrassed...   Yeah, you're right, good arguments, but I insist, I view music from the MUSICAl point of view, Jara and Heredia and Sosa and Piero and Yupanqui were great poets-musicians, I would put them in a genre of their own, but when it comes to music, well, they were just a few good sounding acoustic chords as backdrop for a very well crafted, I give you that, vocal melody.... and about classical music, please, I'm the first to say, what I love the most in this world is the Art of Fugue by the Leipzig Kantor and The Ninth by the Bonn master and 41th - Jupiter by the precocious Salzburguian and Also works by Bruckner, the paranoic symphonies by Shostakovitch, the inner popular drama of Boris Godunov by Mussorgsky... I don't like dodecaphonic music (schoenberg, Webern) so much.... I know it's like the distance between the earth and the moon to compare prog with classic...but I was talking about the music 80% of the people listen to, pop, rock-pop, POPULAR music, that's the context where our loved prog is located (for it was born of ROCK so rock it is).... so I compare to rocks many forms and to insignificances as dance and techno.... (there are some good moments).... I couldn't compare prog with jazz, off course....In a nutshell, maybe even validating your point but also making mine clearer: have you ever heard a prog-rocker taking influences from jazz or classic? 100 times! Have you ever heard it the other way around? NEVER....   There are better and lesser art forms....ours is better than MOST....lesser than a few, and much lesser at that. Don't think I'm THAT pretensious as to think otherwise.

I would like to quote my beloved master and say "Too much perfection is a mistake". Art is created by layers of meaning, simbolism, etc. That being said, a deep analysis on music would have to consider those layers, and how they interact within any given art form. So, I choose Victor Jara over, let's say, Triumvirat, since the logic found into Victor Jara's intertextuality (I hope that word exist in english) fit's his composition, his voice, his attitude and his autenticity as poet, creator and perfomer. The parameters for this are infinite, as seen on Focault's "devices" theory or metaphore (again, hopefully is the same term in english). Jazz musicians have a univers of their own, though many of them are just blowers. Coltrane's work shine between them, because of the layers thing once again (he switches the standard sound of the wind instrument and turns it into a gutural, primal voice, for a variety of purposes, always related to spiritual themes, trying to reach the pure chaos of a meta language). Trance music, techno, if you will, is somehow based on the idea of automatic music, as a way to express the noise of the modern times. I don't remember who said that the music of the future was to be produced by the cities, in a constant flow. That is a very interesting concept, but one have to open the mind in order to get it, and leave the conception that music is an intervention. Music is the idea of music, as well as perfection is the idea of perfection. Influences... mmm that's a tough one. Everyone and everything influences everything else. To be a musician, you must be exposed to music. As every human construct, you need the previous experience to create a system of meanings. That sometimes takes the form of tradition. Music from india (raga, wich also influenced trance music, or ambiet for that matters) was a very interesting thing to Stockhausen, as seen on his experiments. The only measure we have is our own convictions, and that change if you are decided to explore (My guessing is you are). You get the illusion of understandig (getting pretty trance right now), but even what you understand will evolve, and so will your understanding, since melomania is a weird hunger. Just don't take anyting as a truth. You'll perceive that same truth as a mistake later, if you are lucky. If not, you'll ended up with a hundred clone band CD's in you collection, and you'll bother other people with them. Prog is just a resource, an alternative to create, but not the wiser choice. Remember Bartok. He used Minimalism and Folcklore from his country. Both things moved him at equal. An he IS (was) Bela Bartok. The real trick appears to be only joy, a bit of thinking about that joy, and the wish to be part of it.
    

The T wrote: Women tend to love dancing, so that leaves musical intelligence out of their horizon (at least when it comes to rock, for a lot of women like and play - some are the best - classical music) I agree, we proggers are something like weirdos.... for, it's abnormal for the rest of the world to care so much about the quality of the music we are hearing, when most people see it just as an entertainment form (it is that, too, but first it's art).... So, it's in our hands to turn more women out of the musical dark side... And if you find one, man, you are lucky.

well, if that's true then it would explain why i like prog; i can't dance!

otherwise i have no way to explain it. i like both complex and simple, obscure and popular forms of music, as long as it has enough dissonance.

The T wrote: Is there actually a women that likes prog for the music and not for the man that's listening to it?

i'll have to admit, i am attracted to young prog guys.

but i can make my own decisions about what to listen to!

Well, fisrt of all, the post was not intended as some sort of attack. I'm truly sorry if it sounds much to enfatic. I happen to like many different forms of art comming from many different authors, from the simplicity of Manuel Rojas short stories to the incredibly wise Cortázar tales. That "quality" you talk about is a mutable feature. I place Victor Jara and Victor Heredia above prog; I would also place Stravinsky and Berio there. The first ones are folk musicians with a pure form of poetry; the other two are contemporary composers, each devoted to an specific way of composition, where Stravinsky is more clasical driven (although he explored serial music), and Berio went straight to hard experimentation (concrete music, if I remember correctly). Meredith Monk (I realize now I can't stop talking about her) explore a minimalistic form of music, with a very hard conceptual base related to human vocalization in early stages. That particular concept caught my girlfriends imagination. Karen, a dear friend, is very into circus - like music, since she is a sort of actress / dancer, and her imagination is more related to those activities (I've said this so many times before). The place you choose for your mind as point of departure in terms of imagination will always drive you, no matter how much analisis you put into trying to find out about "quality". There must be a difference, since, for example, visual arts produced by women is ruled by a different sense of composition. Also, culture has a rol to play on this. Going back to the traditional Chinese Opera, I haven't met a single occidental who likes it. About prog, I don't like Dream theater, or prog metal at all, but I have a friend who thinks prog metal scene is the ultimate musical experience. He has a very solid theory behind this, but esthetics can be argued ad infinitum. Check out some art history and see how figurative art movements are followed by abstract art movements, all with theories about how figurative / abstract conceptions are the ultimate expression in art. Then, go to any great contemporary composer's home and ask him about prog (I don't know wich one of them is still alive). You'll be probably kicked out. This doesn't solve the thing about genres and music, but I don't belive it to be about genre. But, about dancing: ¿men don't like to dance, or they can't and feel embarrased about it?.   

Hey, calm down... I see your point... you are right in most aspects, but my regard for music is so high, I'm actually a weirdo who sometimes puts this art (not only prog, clasical too, even more) before my women, so it's natural for me to desire to meet one that could talk to me about music in the same level of education and aestethics appreciation... Hey, it's a forum, we write about what we think, maybe being pretentious is trying to act like some higher judge with the code of reason and fairness in his hands....

The T wrote: Seriously, are there women proggers? Women tend to love dancing, so that leaves musical intelligence out of their horizon (at least when it comes to rock, for a lot of women like and play - some are the best - classical music) I agree, we proggers are something like weirdos.... for, it's abnormal for the rest of the world to care so much about the quality of the music we are hearing, when most people see it just as an entertainment form (it is that, too, but first it's art).... So, it's in our hands to turn more women out of the musical dark side... And if you find one, man, you are lucky.

I just wonder what kind of... oh, nevermind. Anyway; prog is not that good. 95% of it is nothing but repetitions. If you dislike this statement, notice that is only as bad as say that women = dancing & no intelligence regarding esthetics. Same goes to person who likes prog = weirdo. Now, ¿why would I be a lucky man just because my girlfriend happens to buyu a certain kind of music?. My girlfriend likes that so called "world music", (including Peter Gabriel worldmusicesque efforts), but I don't feel lucky about it. I'm lucky because someone listen to me, laughs with/at me, etc. Most of all, I'm lucky I didn't ended up with a clone of myself at my side. I'm lucky I didn't ended up with a female dictator at my side. I suspect this is the kind of idea people tend to describe in the forums as prog = pretentious. Plus, I like a good dance once in a while. It's a funny thing to do. And that "Dark side", from my point of view, could easily fit the "Lone side", as seen on every female prog related thread.