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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
 Topic: ImprovisationPosted: November 20 2013 at 09:01 |
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Today, you do not have the great conductors of yesterday.
There is a marked difference listening to the same piece by various folks and their interpretation of the pieces.
Herbert von Karajhan is not the same as Erich Leinsdorf. And not the same as Leonard Bernstein, or others of major note.
You can, probably, find these differences a lot better in opera. Listening to Renata Tebaldi do Turandot with Birgit Nielsen is not the same as any other version, and I have yet to find a better team for it!
But there are some nice things ... take Tosca, and get the 2nd Act aria by Gigli, and then go listen to Pavarotti's or anyone else's. Gigli's will make you cry ... Pavarotti's drills a hole in your ear ... and this, "interpretation", could be said to be similar to improvisation, if that person was more comfortable doing this than that! No one is going to criticize those moments.
Rock music is the same way. But we have not gotten past the "original" stage, and the only person that we know whose music is bad, but the lyrics are very good, is Bob Dylan, when we have heard everyone else do him better, but that is a similar thing, just backwards, so to speak.
The "progressive" ideal, and nature of the work we love is to stretch, and take it to a different place, so we can hear something new, so you might consider, reconsidering your comment, because it looks like one moment you like this or that and the next moment you don't.
This was also an issue in our old days in theater. The English professors came to "listen" for the pentameter, and the postry, not the play. They didn't give a cahoot, about the play, or its interpretation, and that is sad ... go see Richard III with what's his name on a jeep saying ... what I would do for a horse ... this kingdom!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: November 20 2013 at 06:36 |
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I obviously have different tastes and ideas concerning music, but I still think Sarah who replied makes a very good point:
Is being engaged the same as being captivated? Is it possible to tell whether the increased engagement is a positive thing?
I am one of those people that loves hearing albums performed in concert as they sound on CD, I'm sure I listen more attentively to the improvised changes - but I find it uncomfortable to listen to. As a classical musician I think I would be even more unsettled to hear Tchaikovsky or Beethoven altered. I appreciate that not everyone feels that way and would be interested to know if the electroencephalograph can show the difference between the people that like and don't like the improvisation. Fascinating!
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: November 20 2013 at 06:22 |
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I keep saying this over and over again: more power to the Brodmann 9 area!!!!
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 20 2013 at 06:17 |
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What?
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 12:31 |
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That might have been Guitar Player magazine. They had a regular feature column by a guy named Mike Varney where he showcased 3 unknown-up-and-coming guitarists every issue. Varney started the "Shrapnel Records" label where he signed many of these guys to their first recording contract (Greg Howe, Marty Friedman/Jason Becker, & I believe Yngwie too) focusing on shred/speed metal.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 10:19 |
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In the 70's..I was sitting in Holiday Inns listening to the music of John Cage and being pressured to live the life of a Rock Star. There were so many cross patterns within the society of the music business and the pressure was a nightmare from Hell. People always taking pictures of you. When you had a headache from the road travel, you were forced to smile by people who placed their hands on your face asking you to pose in a perfect position. Then they would straighten out your clothes or put more pancake goo on your face. It was like traveling in the circus. Everybody's touching you and treating you soooo special and you begin to develop a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. Groupies are hounding you and it's so difficult to get away and find privacy. You can't seem to find peace on the road and if you make your own rules to escape ..sometimes it can escalate further. Some people used to follow me around and that gets tedious.
The suicide mission sets in when you've been traveling for a year straight, riding a bus, sleeping in Holiday Inns, losing your memory of one town/state to the next, people won't leave you alone, and this all takes it's toll on your mind without the drugs. If you indulged in all the drugs offered to you everyday, this reality would be enhanced down the road. It's not worth the distance. Musicians often attempt suicide when they're torn between 2 seperate worlds. Musicians who indulge with the staff parties become part of their mission. Then they must go back and be the musician again and perform that night. This develops a duel role which is doomed to fail in all areas , destroying your ambition and affecting your art for the worse possibilities.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 09:27 |
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It was a shifty kind of business and you had to be careful and just do what you were told. People I idolized for years were on the circuit and there was no telling as to where they might surface at any given moment...and that's because all you did was travel. After a while they get to know your face, accept your playing, and greet you in the dressing room like associates later turning into friends. It was strange going on to a huge stage to play cover music of Genesis and Jethro Tull in 1978. One mile down the street was Nektar appearing at Alexanders. Alexanders in the area of Fort Dix N.J. where people like Johnny Winter, Rick Derringer, and of all people..Happy the Man performed specifically during the winter months of my travels where I kept bouncing back and forth to Fort Dix inbetween playing theatres in the New England states and Up state N.Y. Fort Dix was a Rock music type community that went for Progressive, Blues, Metal, and Hard Rock (which still was an on going term in the late 70's).
It had the best time ..but..there was the intrusion of mofia related incidents. I was managed by a corporation and when you play a higher circle of venues, you can expect to be surrounded by cheap criminal activity. Cheap in values/morals..but quite scary. Not a environment you could comprehend to the fullest when you're a 21 year old kid in 1978 , not understanding yourself very well, and so I only took notice of what was directly in front of me and that was enough. I tried to ignore everything else. All the higher levels of sexual promiscuity within the high society is repulsive and corporates indulged on that scale , crossing musicians the wrong way with propositions and threats if they don't follow through with it. You may read about this B.S. in a cheapy magazine and get annoyed, but thank the stars up in the sky that you don't work and live within a social environment such as the music business.
The sexual propositions on the road during the 70's gave musicians alternatives that were devistating. Most propositions came directly from staff members and if you were outcast..then it was to be assumed ..you were fired. It was difficult to deal with. With one particular band..our manager was having an affair with our singer. Our singer was 20 years old and our manager was 45. It was a package deal because it placed us immediately into a situation opening for popular bands in huge venues. We had only been together for 2 months and most bands had to work their way up to that scale and were sometimes rejected at showcases. We were on the top while underneath us...the lower scale performing bands were attempting to blackball us. They would send goons out to pay off our sound techs so they would clutter the sound making us seem like a garage band with feedback.
We played "Birdland" by Weather Report, got this standing ovation, and were chewed up and spit out by the owner who complained about the music. Most of the musicians playing in Progressive Rock cover bands in the late 70's were skilled and experienced in other styles.. It was interesting to play theatres in the 70's and 80's, meeting people on their way up and those who had already established a name. It was great to hear their stories and experience a hands on education. It was very sad to see people going under. I was very depressed when a few musician friends performed acts of suicide ...way back in the 70's..and on the road. They felt as if there was no longer a place in the music industry for them and so they abused themselves. It was difficult to enter a dressing room and find your fellow band mate on the floor crying for help. When you're traveling that extensively..these situations are to be expected to occur. First you're on stage performing for a packed house, everyone loves you, and then...suddenly shifted to a bus or a dressing room where someone has taken an overdose and it now becomes your responsibilty to help the person yourself or contact the bodyguards/staff. .
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 08:19 |
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It's difficult to decide on who you can trust in the music business. In the 70's and 80's ..money was flying all around me like the Joker dumping 2 million on a crowd in the Batman movie. The times were extremely different and musicians who played in cover bands were promoted and were booked for thousands. It was very cool to engage in that because the circle of cover band players were also doing road tours with bands like Badfinger ..and..all these connections were intertwined in the 70's. I hardly ever played a bar and mostly toured the theatre and club circuit. I was exposed to that scene during the 70's and it was easy for a musician to find a music career . |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 08:06 |
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In the mid to late 70's..I was traveling with different bands. Cover and original. I knew a guitarist named Ronnie Kayfield who had played with The Heartbreakers , a band that formed out of The New York Dolls. If you traveled the circuit playing 6 nights a week ..you would begin to know musicians all around you and it feels like the musicians are isolated in their own world. The musicians follow each other's career and sometimes they help each other. In this case...Ronnie had designed guitars as a sideline and got this connection to demonstrate the guitar for Ozzy Osbourne. Ozzy was buying a guitar for his new guitarist..Brad Gillis. Ozzy asked Ronnie to demonstrate the guitar and Ronnie played Ozzy's material covering all of Randy Rhodes' parts perfectly. Ozzy offered Ronnie the opportunity to join the band and take on the role as lead guitarist and he was willing to choose Ronnie over Brad Gillis. Ozzy bought airline tickets for Ronnie and his wife and gave directions where to met up with him..after they landed in England. Ronnie and his wife were approached by Pete Way...X-UFO bassist. Pete Way stated that Ozzy was very ill and that he wouldn't be singing, touring and just staying in bed. Pete Way suggested that Ronnie form a band with him to rehearse, record, and tour. They named the band Waysted and they were the opening act for Ozzy on a U.S. tour. When Ozzy saw Ronnie Kayfield...he asked him what had happened? He reminded Ronnie that he had bought the airline tickets and asked why he didn't show up. |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 07:41 |
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I first saw his picture in a Rock magazine when he was 19. In the back of the magazine were pictures of unknowns ..mostly teenagers trying to make the big time. He was dressed in black holding a guitar and he writes: My name is Yngwie Malmsteen and I am a fan of Ritchie Blackmore.
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 4287 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 05:33 |
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Saw him life not that many years ago.
Besides the fact that he looks a bit like some HIP HOP fool, covered in lether glimmer and gold.
He still plays great.
edit (was 2003) Edited by tamijo - October 25 2013 at 06:03 |
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 23:13 |
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What an incredible bit of knowledge here. Great read. Thank you. 
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 13:26 |
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Anyone up for some Yngwie J Malmsteen? I remember his appearance on the scene was accompanied by the myth that he was the 20th century reincarnation of Paganini (who predated Robert Johnson's selling of his soul to the devil by about 200+ years). What made Yngwie unusual (besides his inhuman speed) was he played a Fender Strat with a scalloped fretboard...meaning the wood between the frets was scooped out so he could bend a note not only the standard way (pushing/pulling the string perpendicular to the neck) but also by applying pressure down on the string. Playing a scalloped neck is incredibly difficult and requires incredible control and technique. The only other rock players I've heard of that played a scalloped neck are Steve Vai & Ritchie Blackmore. I have Yngwie's 1984 "Rising Force" album and it's quite remarkable (though it does get a bit tiresome like any shredder album). A few years later Yngwie had developed tendinitis that threatened to end his career (by his own admission because he never warmed up before playing). I don't follow his career anymore but he must have recovered or figured out how to manage his injury because he shows up from time-to-time as a guest on That Metal Show pushing a new album/tour/etc.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:31 |
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Many of the great Metal guitarists based their improvisation around passages that had been previously written by the great Paganini of the 18th century. For example: You learn Paganini pieces and study the signature melody lines in all sections of the pieces and master them to perfection. Using a pick you run over them everyday for long hours. The next step is to record yourself playing a chord progression in a "dark" minor key. Then you play the tape back and improvise over it to see what you can create. Many of these guitarists would gather ideas by using this practice and in the end composing some very impressive Progressive Metal.
Some of the well known Metal guitarists had a Classical background ..for example, their parents were music teachers and so on....Point is..they were the better overall players in the Metal field. It was all about "who can play faster" and that's a little hyped and is also retarded and repulsive when all the little egocentric punks are on a mission to impress the girls and play faster than all the other guitarists on the circuit. I played a Metal circuit during the first wave height of Metal music and it cracks me up to remember these guys who had Classical backgrounds and they were so worried about their hair or how they looked when they would swing it around on stage. It was like the "Glitter Rock" or "Glam Rock" period again for me. Dragon myths conceived by a scene that was questionable to me. Some people were very natural to that scene, but something felt contrived about it. Maybe when the record executives put pressure on the musicians to change their album cover to represent something completely sadistic in nature which was at the time very influential to the youth. It did influence kids to gain interested in the underworld. Some people had a fringe association and others indulged. With my personal experience I ran into situations with musicians who were signing record deals but only under the 1 condition of changing their album cover to look sadistic and totally disturbing. These were professional full time working musicians I had known for decades..who decided to write original Metal music , they were about to be signed . but created a dispute over placing a painting of a mother serving a dead baby to the family at the dinner table. Or? use your imagination and create your own cover. I mean...that's what they were doing and if you didn't listen to instructions..you wouldn't get the record deal.
Then there were all these issues and tragic events talking place in the news media and it was all about teenagers with Satanic crimes. I have a hard time digesting this when the record companies were more directly responsible for any influence over a kid's mind to take their own life than a young naive musician who follows the rules just because they want to make it. Of course the musicians wrote on the subject of the occult ..but on second thought..the record companies handed witchcraft/sci-fi/occult books to the musicians and suggested for them to do their homework. That was extremely high pressured and it was a demand from the record company. This course of action fed their pockets with millions. Some of the original Metal bands I knew in the early 80's turned down their record contract having a dispute over the album cover. The scene was high pressured then, but not everybody wanted to fall short of it. Some Metal bands had a different kind of originality and were never signed because of a dispute like that. Edited by TODDLER - October 24 2013 at 10:33 |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 09:23 |
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Preparing for the last exit. That's how I interpret Blind Owl Wilson's suicide. With his interest in ecology he adapted his life to it by living outdoors. When Canned Heat toured, Blind Owl would take his sleeping bag and head for the woods. He was named Blind Owl because he wore thick glasses and couldn't see 2 feet in front of him. He was an amazing harp player. If he was backing a 4 bar Blues tune..he would grab certain harmonizing notes and create the sound of a 3 piece horn section playing in harmony. He also emulated the sound of a Hammond B3 organ on the harmonica by producing the more percussive side to it. When he improvised, the notes he played were endless passages that transformed into a very original sound. He was Jazzy and Bluesy. He studied music from India and often played sitar putting a kind of drone tone backdrop/atmospheric sound behind the songs. When he played slide guitar...some of his open tunings were common in India.....by mentioning this I point out that many people might hear notes in his slide guitar solos that sound awkward at first, but they are completely fitting to Blues music and I often wonder if Blind Owl was an innovator that way.That's a very strange thing to do in 1967. He recorded a very strange 3 or 4 minute piece back with a sitar drone. He improvises over top of the drone with a harp. There was something unexplainable about his improvisation on that track. He takes improvisation to a universal level like a master yet the music can put you into deep thought. He was an interesting character. He could never find a woman and he was tormented on the inside. His hygiene was questionable because he would hardly ever take a bath or shower and wear the same clothes everyday until the band insisted that he changed. The band would be boarding a plane because they had a show in Europe and they would have to search in the bushes and dig through all the soil samples in his pockets to find his airline ticket. I think he needed a woman who lived off the land. Not a groupie by any means. I believe when he died ...he believed in his mind that he was about to enter a better place. He was part of the 60's, influential to how improvisation could be changed, but definitely didn't fit in. No way in this life could he have fit in with the social crowd of that scene ..with all their pressures of sexual promiscuity, pay offs..and politics. He rebelled against the goverment in an obvious but mystique way. He was a progressive musician that was very artistic expressing his political references through music. He was subtle and shy and tried to make the concept more of an art form. Edited by TODDLER - October 24 2013 at 09:27 |
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jayem
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 995 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 20:21 |
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Actually (seen on TV) a guy video-doc'ed his last weeks before committing suicide, saying he felt much better once deeply convinced death was the only "right way". The torment fuel(l)ed by the part of him going for live vs the one for death, was behind. Time to relax and prepare the last exit.
Edited by jayem - October 24 2013 at 16:25 |
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 16:28 |
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Ya, "This man now owns a Bentley!"...whatever happened to "All You Need is Love"
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 16:08 |
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 11:36 |
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Good point, the Beatles were signing any crazy thing to Apple in those days and since John & Brian were close, it would have been a no brainer. Alas, Brian was too far gone...reminds me of a Fripp quote, "Jimi Hendrix is an example of how a major talent can be dissipated by drugs and abuse...That he failed to accept the responsibility of his gift is a tragedy."  Edited by The.Crimson.King - October 23 2013 at 11:37 |
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 11:28 |
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Ya, the whole time I was writing that reply the Greenslade song "Drowning Man" kept running through my head  "The drowning man doth clutch at straws while he breathes through open pores"
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Improvisation
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Guldbamsen wrote:
may contain Progressive metal.