Re:London Underground

sigod wrote: [/QUO

On a positive note, I can at least feel some sense of achievement for the inadvertent comraderie u and Tony have developed on this issue.

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It'll never happen again Barb, trust me.
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maani wrote: Barbs, Easy: For perhaps only the second time in recorded history (), I basically agree with Tony (Oh no!).  Although I realize and appreciate that people need time to grieve or simply get over the general shock of an incident like the London bombings, I, too, find it somewhat disingenuous to talk about a "community in grief."  As Tony notes, this may be true when you actually know someone who died or got injured.  However, other than that, the entire "community in grief" issue is something of a "whitewash": all it does is focus on the "negative" (usually for far too long, at least as the media would have it, since they have papers and advertising to sell...), rather than on anything of "substance."  Again, I am not belittling in any way the need for people to grieve (if they knew someone involved) or get over shock: heck, I minister to people in those situations fairly often.  However, people also need to "move on," and all the media does is in many cases is attempt to delay or interfere with that.  Peace.

Maani, nowhere did I use the expression 'community in grief'. Most of us are very distant from the event and are therefore not directly affected by it.

I totally agree about the media. They get as much mileage out of something as they possibly can.

However, I noticed that in a couple of posts there were comments coming from a few people that indicated that they felt we were being insensitive about it. When I considered what they said it became apparent to me that our need to 'present our case' or just simply argue about this, held precedence at times to the way a few people seemed to be feeling.

I stared the thread (anyone could have) so I felt a bit personally responsible for how people seemed to be responding.  

If you find my comments disingenuous then so be it. What in your opinion and experience is a reasonable amount of time for someone to 'move on'?

On a positive note, I can at least feel some sense of achievement for the inadvertent comraderie u and Tony have developed on this issue.

Barbs, Easy:

For perhaps only the second time in recorded history (), I basically agree with Tony (Oh no!).  Although I realize and appreciate that people need time to grieve or simply get over the general shock of an incident like the London bombings, I, too, find it somewhat disingenuous to talk about a "community in grief."  As Tony notes, this may be true when you actually know someone who died or got injured.  However, other than that, the entire "community in grief" issue is something of a "whitewash": all it does is focus on the "negative" (usually for far too long, at least as the media would have it, since they have papers and advertising to sell...), rather than on anything of "substance."  Again, I am not belittling in any way the need for people to grieve (if they knew someone involved) or get over shock: heck, I minister to people in those situations fairly often.  However, people also need to "move on," and all the media does is in many cases is attempt to delay or interfere with that.

Mark:

In response to my comment about the House of Bush and House of Saud, and the Carlyle Group, you said: "Let's also consider that George Soros...is part of the Carlyle Group as well...So it's not just narrowed down to one party.  You know it seems that if you have any oil connection, you're automatically labeled as evil these days.  All I really hear from the left is nothing but speculation and conjecture brought on by fear and emotionalism. No logic, no facts. We've gone from Lee Harvey Oswald to 4 gunmen. Anybody remember Joe Kennedy and his ties to the Nazis? When does the paranioa stop?"

Yes, George Soros provided the initial funding for one of The Carlyle Group's private funds.  But I never said (or suggested) that The Carlyle Group, or "conspiracies" in general, are the province of a single party.  Bill Clinton gave the keynote speech at the Bilderberg Conference a few years ago.  And Jimmy Carter is a founding member and Honorary Chair of the Trilateral Commission.  And that's just for starters.

As for "...nothing but speculation and conjecture brought on by fear and emotionalism.  No logic, no facts," I beg to differ.  There are tons of facts, and a great deal of logic at work.  Indeed, it is the tacit intention of these groups and their members to prevent (or at least discourage) people from applying logic to the world around them, and instead simply accept what they "see" or are told.  Yes, there will always be some "speculation" and "conjecture."  But there is also a wealth of facts and information that is there if one has the time and inclination to seek it out.  And with the Internet, that has become easier and quicker to do.

Peace.

sigod wrote: This link might also help explain the feelings of some Londoners and their reaction to the reaction. http://www.londonist.com/archives/2005/07/london_hurts.php

Thats EXACTLY how I feel about it.

Though,obviously not a Londoner myself,we dont do "maudlin" in this country.

We just get on with it.

When I started this thread my intention was to connect up the site members in order for them to convey their sympathy to one another where they were affected and to show our support in a positive way, in a time of need. That was the intention at least, however, it would seem that it has at times digressed somewhat from that original intention.

I can understand that, as there are as many theories and speculations as to why it happens and who is really responsible, as there are many and varied feelings about this kind of terrible event.

To that degree I agree with Tony R's point of view that there can be much to learn through 'intelligent' and 'informed' discussions about these things    however,

...it became apparent to me that some of us were becoming somewhat insensitive to those people who have been directly affected by events of that nature, including 9/11, and we were at times proceeding with a line of argument which was opinionated at the expense of the feelings of others.

I might have a right to voice my opinion, but I think I need to exercise maturity by taking into account what others may be feeling at the time, particularly when it is so close to the event.

People need time to grieve. They need time to recover from the nightmare of an event like this.

My opinion then is secondary to the feelings of those people.

We may not all agree about things and we may not even like one another at times from what we have read in the posts, but I would hope that we could try to consider this, particularly in these type of events (and I only think it is realistic to assume that it will happen again.)

On reflection then can we at least try and consider one another more highly than ourselves by humbling ourselves in this way (as some have already done). It can only add to a better humanity.

I would welcome feedback on this.

Joren wrote: Easy Living, I think there is nothing wrong with a discussion.

Absolutely correct Joren, I'd just prefer it to be in a different thread..

Joren wrote: The Doctor wrote: Tony R wrote: The Doctor wrote: Hey I'm not really all that fond of the religious nuts in this country either.  I really don't have much respect for most organized religions, Christianity included.  On the other hand, I haven't heard of Christian suicide bombers killing innocent people on their way to work.  So fundamentalist Christians would be the second group to go. What about Christian Bomber Crews?  Stop the ignorant posts. This is people killing people.Religion is just an excuse.   Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder Tony.  I'm sure not everyone on these boards shares what seems to be an ultra-left anti-western attitude.  They just apparently aren't as vocal as I am.  Ignorance to me is continuing to try to apologize for and placate those who commit these horrible atrocities, while at the same time blaming the victims (or the countries of the victims) for the acts of these animals masquerading as humans.  Hopefully, these ultra-left, anti-western attitudes will not hold sway with the majority of the people or with our elected officials or pretty soon, we will all be praising allah.  Not because we believe in it, but because we are forced to. However, I can see that I am in a minority here, or a very non-vocal majority, so I've said all I will say on the subject, except that I feel the utmost compassion for our U.K. friends. Peace.  Out.  Please read maani's post. Your original post about muslims made me really sad.  People who say things like you did are one of the reasons that there is so much hate in the world. Please try to understand that you can't throw out all muslims just because a few of them are misbehaving (how badly it may be). Every individual has his or her rights.

Very ncie to see how you ignored my post, The Doctor

Easy Living, I think there is nothing wrong with a discussion.

Due to some freak coincidence I only found out about the attacks yesterday, and the news caught me in an informational vacuum, so I apologise for the belated response. My prayers go out to everyone involved in the tragedy. My cousin was in the centre of London at the time, fortuntately she was out of harm's way and is now safe back home. Too bad the same can't be said for the cousins of many other people.